Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Red Cat]

Published a link below.

Thanks.

 

[Pickman's model]

http://sci-hub.la/http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10481889909539349?journalCode=hpsd20

See, I'm nice to you, even though you mostly sound like a sociopath.

nice but dim

 

[Miranda Yardley]

nice but dim

#ironicpostoftheday

 

[8ball]

Me too. The message I'm getting lately is that if I see things this way then I should simply self identify as 'agender', job done.

That's... new.

 

[SpookyFrank]

We undergo a medical and social transition, both have limitations. This may help you understand my position more:

‘Transwomen’ are not Women

So others who undergo a similar transition and subsequently consider themselves to be women are wrong? It must follow from this that both their experiences, and the opinions they have formed as a result of them, are therefore invalid. Not just false, invalid. Based on false premises, a mere fever-dream. Not worthy of rebuttal.

You can win any argument if your opening gambit is to stick your fingers in your ears and scream la la la you're not real I can't hear you.

 

[SpookyFrank]

See, I'm nice to you, even though you mostly sound like a sociopath.

But he's our sociopath. You've not served enough time in these parts to get away with the nasty personal digs.

 

[elbows]

Just when we seemed to be getting on too. Please show me anything abusive I have said to anyone here or elsewhere.

I didnt mention abuse. I just found it funny that someone who thinks their own beliefs are good reason not to refer to people using gender pronouns that they are comfortable with, and that to do otherwise would be cruel lying, has an interest in others being charming.

I dont generally think of my discussions with other people here in terms of how well I am now getting on with someone. The full spectrum from civility to hostility is available at any time depending on whats being said.

 

[Pickman's model]

So others who undergo a similar transition and subsequently consider themselves to be women are wrong? It must follow from this that both their experiences, and the opinions they have formed as a result of them, are therefore invalid. Not just false, invalid. Based on false premises, a mere fever-dream. Not worthy of rebuttal.

You can win any argument if your opening gambit is to stick your fingers in your ears and scream la la la you're not real I can't hear you.

my's opening gambit is also my's closing gambit

 

[Miranda Yardley]

So others who undergo a similar transition and subsequently consider themselves to be women are wrong? It must follow from this that both their experiences, and the opinions they have formed as a result of them, are therefore invalid. Not just false, invalid. Based on false premises, a mere fever-dream. Not worthy of rebuttal.

You can win any argument if your opening gambit is to stick your fingers in your ears and scream la la la you're not real I can't hear you.

They can consider themselves to be women, but they are not women in the same way as women born and raised. There's benefit to be gained by trans people if they can recognise this.

 

[8ball]

But he's our sociopath. You've not served enough time in these parts to get away with the nasty personal digs.

Was there a time before the nasty personal digs?

 

[8ball]

They can consider themselves to be women, but they are not women in the same way as women born and raised. There's benefit to be gained by trans people if they can recognise this.

I'm not sure the orthodoxy is to completely deny that - we have the term "transwomen" for a reason.

 

[MochaSoul]

Me too. The message I'm getting lately is that if I see things this way then I should simply self identify as 'agender', job done.

Aargh, yes, I meant agender in my previous post too, rather than asexual

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I didnt mention abuse. I just found it funny that someone who thinks their own beliefs are good reason not to refer to people using gender pronouns that they are comfortable with, and that to do otherwise would be cruel lying, has an interest in others being charming.

I dont generally think of my discussions with other people here in terms of how well I am now getting on with someone. The full spectrum from civility to hostility is available at any time depending on whats being said.

Back to pronouns again! Whatever political disagreement I have with others, I am always courteous and polite and reason my points. Can the same be said elsewhere?

 

[SpookyFrank]

What does this bit mean ? Are you saying that someone who transitions and now identifies as female was in fact female from the moment they were born? That seems ..quite extreme. There's a bit in the netflix show 'transparent' where the main character (MtF who transitions in later life) sends all their childhood photographs off to be re-gendered so that they get a whole album of pictures showing a parallel childhood, an alternate reality where they got to grow up as a girl with long hair etc. That's fiction though.

As I understand it people become aware of not being/not feeling like the gender they have been assigned before they transition. 'From birth' is pushing it, as nobody has any kind of subjective identity when they're born.

 

[kabbes]

I'm not sure the orthodoxy is to completely deny that - we have the term "transwomen" for a reason.

Who "are women", remember. That's an equivalence relation.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Was there a time before the nasty personal digs?

There must have been a point, however brief, when there was only one member?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm not sure the orthodoxy is to completely deny that - we have the term "transwomen" for a reason.

WELL. You should be aware that transgender culture demands 'trans women' with a space, which suggests 'trans women' are a subset of women.

The dominant claim is that 'trans women are women':

"trans women are women" - Twitter Search

and this is now moving to 'trans women are female':

"trans women are female" - Twitter Search

 

[8ball]

There must have been a point, however brief, when there was only one member?

I mean from PM.

 

[MochaSoul]

Who "are women", remember. That's an equivalence relation.

Not just "women". Female too.

ETA: Miranda Yardley got there first

 

[SpookyFrank]

They can consider themselves to be women, but they are not women in the same way as women born and raised. There's benefit to be gained by trans people if they can recognise this.

Why does 'different from' have to be 'less than'?

 

[SpookyFrank]

I mean from PM.

Oh yeah right. Answer's probably no in that case.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm not sure the orthodoxy is to completely deny that - we have the term "transwomen" for a reason.

Also, see this from 2014:

"Kellie Maloney has always been female
Kellie Maloney has always been a woman. She isn’t becoming a woman or pretending to be one. She doesn’t “think” she is a woman. Nor is she magically transforming into a woman via some alchemical trickery."

Kellie Maloney has always been female

 

[Athos]

It's not just a disagreement. Telling people that they're not who they say they are is invalidating them as people, and it has nothing to do with their beliefs or opinions or actions. I disagree with Miranda Yardley on possibly 80% of all known fields of human understanding, but I have not suggested that Miranda Yardley is anything other than Miranda Yardley, or that Miranda Yardley's beliefs as expressed here are not genuine.

Not believing something about someone that they believe about themselves doesn't 'invalidate them as a person' (whatever that's supposed to mean).

I work with a bloke who thinks he's funny; I don't think he's funny. I know a woman who says she's clever; she's not. I walk past a homeless bloke who claims he's part of the royal family; I disagree. I'm not saying they don't honestly believe those things, and I wouldn't try to force them to conceive of themselves otherwise.

Whilst it's incumbent on me to treat them courteously, there can be no moral imperative for me to adopt their beliefs. That way lies madness!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

But he's our sociopath. You've not served enough time in these parts to get away with the nasty personal digs.

He called me a 'stupid stupid cunt'. I note you think it's okay for language like that to be used against transsexuals you disagree with.

 

[8ball]

Who "are women", remember. That's an equivalence relation.

It's not a relation of total equivalence.
If it was, not only would all transwomen be women, but all women would be transwomen.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Also, see this from 2014:

"Kellie Maloney has always been female
Kellie Maloney has always been a woman. She isn’t becoming a woman or pretending to be one. She doesn’t “think” she is a woman. Nor is she magically transforming into a woman via some alchemical trickery."

Kellie Maloney has always been female

I don't know who Kellie Maloney is but as a matter of principal I ignore anything shouted at me in giant font.

 

[elbows]

Back to pronouns again! Whatever political disagreement I have with others, I am always courteous and polite and reason my points. Can the same be said elsewhere?

I'm not actually pronoun obsessed, but yes we are going to keep going back to it for reasons that should be obvious.

eg when I've mentioned it in the past you've often responded with a point about lying and cruelty. But we all know that lying, leaving some things unsaid, moderating yourself, etc, are things that may need to be employed when it comes to standard everyday courtesy and politeness in various situations. I cant remove gender pronouns from this picture.

 

[kabbes]

He called me a 'stupid stupid cunt'. I note you think it's okay for language like that to be used against transsexuals you disagree with.

Just put him on ignore. It's what half of urban does. The other half spend their time going down increasingly pointless rabbit holes of pedantry with him that require considerable scrolling past on the part of the ones sensible enough to be in the first half. He's not called "Pickman" for nothing.

 

[SpookyFrank]

He called me a 'stupid stupid cunt'. I note you think it's okay for language like that to be used against transsexuals you disagree with.

I'd rather be called a cunt than be told my identity is a lie.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

As I understand it people become aware of not being/not feeling like the gender they have been assigned before they transition. 'From birth' is pushing it, as nobody has any kind of subjective identity when they're born.

Again, you don't understand the position you are defending. Transgender culture argues that 'gender identity' is innate and this is foundational to many claims made.