Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[littlebabyjesus]

Was that a pout?

No, just don't want to watch Greer dribbling on again. Once was enough.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Aside from on the internet, I've yet to meet anyone who has taken such a stand. People generally act in a way that tries, however clumsily, to respect the wishes and feelings of the trans person in question. The idea that expecting people to respect those wishes is an attack on free speech and personal liberty is absurd. You are making absurd arguments now.

No, it's far from absurd. Here are four concrete examples:

Trans weightlifter Laurel Hubbard wins silver at World Championship

After Being TKO'd by Fallon Fox, Tamikka Brents Says Transgender Fighters in MMA 'Just Isn't Fair' - Cagepotato

Hannah Mouncey: AFLW block transgender athlete from 2018 draft

Jailed fell runner thought UK Athletics was 'trying to kill her'

 

[8ball]

You realise female pronouns are a fairly recent invention?

This really doesn’t aid your argument in any way.

 

[smokedout]

What 'comrades'? And what 'acts'?

Well for a start the repeated and deliberate misuse of scientific research to claim that transwomen retain male patterns of criminality. The transcrime website used to whip up hatred against transwomen. Venice Allan's weird stalky behaviour around Lily Madigan and the attempts to smear her over something she might have said as a child, the deliberate misrepresentaion of upcoming legal changes to the law on the leaflet which was handed out at the anarchist bookfair, the cosying up to the right wing press and jublience when they whip up online hate mobs to attack Madigan, the Top Shop toilet person and many more, the outing and bullying of transwomen that has gone on on websites like twansphobic, the mockery and vindictiveness of some of the stuff Burchill and Bindel have come out with in the national press, Shiela Jeffries calls for transgender healthcare to be declared a human rights abuse, and of course the far more violent attacks than what is alleged to have happened at Hyde Park committed against transwomen by some rad fems in the 70s.

All of these things are intended to promote hatred of an already marginalised group which is already disproportionately affected by violence. That has real world effects in society, and I would suggest it is intended to. I'm aware that academics and magazine editors do not fight their battles with silly online threats (by and large) and shouty protests, but their voice is much louder, their intentions very precise, and the result of their actions, ultimately, is a society where transwomen are more at risk of violence and abuse.

 

[8ball]

No, it's far from absurd. Here are four concrete examples:

These all happened when someone used a pronoun choice you dislike?

Wow!

 

[Miranda Yardley]

These all happened when someone used a pronoun choice you dislike?

No, these are men demanding to be seen and treated as women, with real-world consequences.

 

[Pickman's model]

You realise female pronouns are a fairly recent invention?

are they really?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, it's far from absurd. Here are four concrete examples:

The issue of transgender people (and intersex people) competing in sport is a very thorny one (and is an issue for which an exception was made in the UK's 2004 legislation, as I'm sure you know). I'd be happy to discuss it with you and you might find I agree with you about much of it, but that has nothing to do with deliberately misgendering a person when you talk to or about them, which is the issue at point here.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Aside from on the internet, I've yet to meet anyone who has taken such a stand. People generally act in a way that tries, however clumsily, to respect the wishes and feelings of the trans person in question.

I agree with this and do the same. However it seems somewhat one sided when we use gender pronouns of people’s choice out of respect whilst having words like cis foisted on others who have objected to it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree with this and do the same. However it seems somewhat one sided when we use gender pronouns of people’s choice out of respect whilst having words like cis foisted on people who have objected to it.

I've never heard anyone being called 'cis' irl, while it is hard to go through a whole day without someone using a pronoun to represent you. Doesn't seem much of an equivalence to me.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Well for a start the repeated and deliberate misuse of scientific research to claim that transwomen retain male patterns of criminality.

This is a direct quote from 'Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden' which you can read here: Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males.​

The transcrime website used to whip up hatred against transwomen. etc

I think if crimes by males are being reported and categorised as crimes by females, we need to know the truth. That said, the site is nothing to do with me, and it's is the government's responsibility to not report misleading statistics.

I'm not responsible for other people's actions, and I have gone out of my way to, for example, deal with misinformation spread about things like the Gender Recognition Act, which is well-meaning but badly drafted law with unintended consequences like supporting negative discrimination against homosexuals. I have also pointed out it negatively discriminates against all trans* individuals who do not want their birth certificate to be reissued, we cannot benefit from the Act outside of its effect on the Equality Act.

All of these things are intended to promote hatred of an already marginalised group which is already disproportionately affected by violence.

You mean this 'marginalised group which is already disproportionately affected by violence'?

coming for your throats terfs - Twitter Search

That has real world effects in society, and I would suggest it is intended to. I'm aware that academics and magazine editors do not fight their battles with silly online threats (by and large) and shouty protests, but their voice is much louder, their intentions very precise, and the result of their actions, ultimately, is a society where transwomen are more at risk of violence and abuse.

You are aware that, for example, the murder rate of trans people is no different to that of the general population?

life is good, make it better: the appropriation of black and hispanic trans deaths by white trans women and political opportunists

(Written by a transgender activist I disagree with on many points!)

 

[8ball]

No, these are men demanding to be seen and treated as women, with real-world consequences.

So not relevant to what I said, then.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

The issue of transgender people (and intersex people) competing in sport is a very thorny one (and is an issue for which an exception was made in the UK's 2004 legislation, as I'm sure you know). I'd be happy to discuss it with you and you might find I agree with you about much of it, but that has nothing to do with deliberately misgendering a person when you talk to or about them, which is the issue at point here.

I am happy to discuss this, and I think like with most people we may agree on more than we disagree.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've never heard anyone being called 'cis' irl, while it is hard to go through a whole day without someone using a pronoun to represent you. Doesn't seem much of an equivalence to me.

won't be long before people's behaviour will be described as cissy

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I've never heard anyone being called 'cis' irl, while it is hard to go through a whole day without someone using a pronoun to represent you. Doesn't seem much of an equivalence to me.

True, in my experience it’s usually spat at me followed by some denunciation but online rather than in the pub.

 

[bimble]

Jesus what a mess. Miranda's reappearance brings all the shouty boys to the yard.

 

[Sea Star]

Ah, good. I'm glad you've shown up.



Please substantiate your claims, viz:

• that I have ever doxed anyone;
• that I am abusive;
• that I am a source of 'constant lies'.

Please also substantiate you claim that I 'put up a website - when I stood for parliament - implying that I was a sexual abuser of children'. This statement is I have been told, actionable and I would please ask you kindly to either substantiate it or retract it and apologise.

Thank you.

I retract and I apologise.

 

[Sea Star]

..

 

[Sea Star]

I move that this thread be binned immediately

 

[smokedout]

This is a direct quote from 'Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden' which you can read here: Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males.​

​

And here's what the author of that study says about how the findings have been misreported: Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal – The TransAdvocate

I think if crimes by males are being reported and categorised as crimes by females, we need to know the truth. That said, the site is nothing to do with me, and it's is the government's responsibility to not report misleading statistics.

That website has nothing to do with statistics. It lists driving offences for fucks sake. It exists purely to whip up fear and hatred of transpeople. Do you condemn it?

I'm not responsible for other people's actions, and I have gone out of my way to, for example, deal with misinformation spread about things like the Gender Recognition Act, which is well-meaning but badly drafted law with unintended consequences like supporting negative discrimination against homosexuals. I have also pointed out it negatively discriminates against all trans* individuals who do not want their birth certificate to be reissued, we cannot benefit from the Act outside of its effect on the Equality Act.

Good, have you spoken out against the misrepresentation of the proposed changes, such as claiming cross party recommendations are 'proposed tory laws'?

You mean this 'marginalised group which is already disproportionately affected by violence'?

coming for your throats terfs - Twitter Search

Would you diminish racially motivated violence by posting a handful of tweets from a few people who came from the group under attack? Pretty shameful this.

You are aware that, for example, the murder rate of trans people is no different to that of the general population?

life is good, make it better: the appropriation of black and hispanic trans deaths by white trans women and political opportunists

(Written by a transgender activist I disagree with on many points!

You are aware that there were 1,248 recorded hate crimes against trans people in the most recent year and that those crimes were disproportionately more likely to involve violence?

 

[bimble]

How have you been gagged Sea Star ?

 

[Sea Star]

Jesus what a mess. Miranda's reappearance brings all the shouty boys to the yard.

I note that you in no way consider me to be a woman.

 

[elbows]

I move that this thread be binned immediately

Why? If its gone wrong for you thats one thing, but this thread is about far more than that and I dont see why we should be expected to junk the entire conversation.

 

[Sea Star]

Why? If its gone wrong for you thats one thing, but this thread is about far more than that and I dont see why we should be expected to junk the entire conversation.

This thread is 100% bullshit. If no trans person is able to contribute meaningfully it's just cis people spouting hot air.

 

[bimble]

I note that you in no way consider me to be a woman.

Not everything is about you.

 

[Sea Star]

Not everything is about you.

Everything is about cis people I know that

 

[Athos]

This thread is 100% bullshit. If no trans person is able to contribute meaningfully it's just cis people spouting hot air.

Nobody is stopping you contributing.

 

[Sea Star]

After that I think I'm going to leave for a while. If anyone needs to contact me they won't be able to do it via this thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

I move that this thread be binned immediately

propose that to editor then. rather than frothing about it.

i am sure he will give your suggestion the attention it merits.

 

[bimble]

Sea Star you were asked politely to substantiate accusations you’d made against someone or else to retract them. You chose retract and then say the whole thread should be binned. Seems a bit extreme.