Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[Miranda Yardley]

There you go, giving me more reasons to consider you a fuckwit. I'm not going to waste my time seeing how many different ways I'm supposed to say that I dont think the violence is acceptable. Because apparently a clear and simple reply is not enough for you, at least when I go on to follow it with a further point about people using this stuff to further their own agendas.

For the avoidance of doubt, since it seems to be slippery in your world, I was talking about coverage. And I certainly dont mean that such violent acts should not receive coverage just because some of those doing the covering are using it for their own purposes. I'm not interested in shying away from events which are not good for causes I suppose. But coverage of how people use these events is important too.

Why are you so incapable of condemning acts of male violence without qualification? It's okay for people to disagree on things, but the way to resolve it is through discussion and debate, not raising fists.

 

[8ball]

These are all acts of female erasure.

These are nothing to do with erasure. They are issues of categorization.

 

[elbows]

Why are you so incapable of condemning acts of male violence without qualification? It's okay for people to disagree on things, but the way to resolve it is through discussion and debate, not raising fists.

I condemn the acts of violence without qualification. The media coverage point is an entirely different thing that has zero bearing on my attitude towards those committing the violence. It is not a qualification that justifies any violent act.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

elbows clearly implied nothing of the kind.

It was about the motives of those newspapers in "rushing to your aid" that looks very naïve.

Again my point was more the failure of the left rather than these taking a particular side. I'm all for transgender people having rights, but that does not extend to being allowed to commit acts of physical or rhetorical violence.

 

[smokedout]

Do you consider that 'transgender women' can legitimately commit acts of physical violence against women they disagree with?

Grow up, there has been nasty shit on both sides, but violence has been incredibly rare. I've yet to see you condemn some of the more extreme acts and behaviours of your comrades.

 

[elbows]

Again my point was more the failure of the left rather than these taking a particular side. I'm all for transgender people having rights, but that does not extend to physical or rhetorical violence.

Or the right to be referred to by the gender pronoun of choice, you horrible shit.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I condemn the acts of violence without qualification. The media coverage point is an entirely different thing that has zero bearing on my attitude towards those committing the violence. It is not a qualification that justifies any violent act.

Again my point about the media coverage was more the failure of the left rather than any particular political agreement or disagreement.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Grow up, there has been nasty shit on both sides, but violence has been incredibly rare. I've yet to see you condemn some of the more extreme acts and behaviours of your comrades.

What 'comrades'? And what 'acts'?

 

[8ball]

Again my point was more the failure of the left rather than these taking a particular side. I'm all for transgender people having rights, but that does not extend to being allowed to commit acts of physical or rhetorical violence.

Fair enough. I'd agree on the 'failure of the left' part. But the willingness of certain other sections of the press to report on it doesn't make it selectively a failure of the left, if you see what I mean.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Or the right to be referred to by the gender pronoun of choice, you horrible shit.

Nobody anywhere has the right to compel other people to acknowledge their inner identities as real where these contradict material reality. That said, transgender people should be treated fairly and with compassion. Lying to people is neither fair nor compassionate. Rather, it is cruel.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have absolutely no control over what other people call me or say about me. I have, however, made my own position very clear on many occasions.

I encourage and support anyone in the act of refusing to use ‘preferred pronouns’, ‘transwoman’ or ‘transwoman’, and refuses as an act of political disobedience to refer to males as women, females or she/her. And to be clear, within this I include myself.

Why I Disavow ‘Woman’ And Am No Longer ‘Gender Critical’

I've thought a fair bit about this wrt the two trans friends I have irl, one a trans woman the other a trans man. If someone I knew refused to refer to either of them by the pronoun of their choice and continued refusing on principle after being asked not to, that person would quickly cease to be a person I knew. There is no dressing up of that attitude as anything other than being a total fucking shit.

I train in martial arts with one of them. I'd kick a person out of my dojo if they persisted with shit like this. While you would 'encourage and support' it. How the fuck have you gone so wrong?

 

[pengaleng]

2/10. boring.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Fair enough. I'd agree the 'failure of the left' part. But the willingness of certain other sections of the press to report on it doesn't make it selectively a failure of the left, if you see what I mean.

It's a failure of the left to do this. I've said many times how damaging it is to trans people to allow the right to be the only host of debate on the trans issue. This is not controlling debate (which is the intention, if you read the 'Trans Media Watch' guidelines), it is giving away the right to contribute to the debate.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I've thought a fair bit about this wrt the two trans friends I have irl, one a trans woman the other a trans man. If someone I knew refused to refer to either of them by the pronoun of their choice and continued refusing on principle after being asked not to, that person would quickly cease to be a person I knew. There is no dressing up of that attitude as anything other than being a total fucking shit.

I train in martial arts with one of them. I'd kick a person out of my dojo if they persisted with shit like this. While you would 'encourage and support' it. How the fuck have you gone so wrong?

Germaine Greer would use preferred names and pronouns!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Germaine Greer would use preferred names and pronouns!

Which proves what exactly, except that your associates are even worse than Greer on this matter?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I train in martial arts with one of them. I'd kick a person out of my dojo if they persisted with shit like this. While you would 'encourage and support' it. How the fuck have you gone so wrong?

"I support the rights and opinions of trans people, except you."

 

[elbows]

Nobody anywhere has the right to compel other people to acknowledge their inner identities as real where these contradict material reality. That said, transgender people should be treated fairly and with compassion. Lying to people is neither fair nor compassionate. Rather, it is cruel.

I'm sure very few will accuse you of compassion towards those you misgender with relish.

Because acts that qualify as compassionate only by virtue of your beliefs are not likely to meet general standards of compassionate behaviour and communication. Your particular form of 'being cruel to be kind' is laughable and whilst it is clear you have a self-justification and internal logic for it, dont expect it to wash more broadly.

 

[8ball]

Nobody anywhere has the right to compel other people to acknowledge their inner identities as real where these contradict material reality. That said, transgender people should be treated fairly and with compassion. Lying to people is neither fair nor compassionate. Rather, it is cruel.

All it means is a minor caveat clause being appended to particular pronouns (those pronouns always having been occasionally problematic in any case).
The alternative is a combative simplistic absolutism.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Which proves what exactly, except that your associates are even worse than Greer on this matter?

What in this interview does Greer say that you object to?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"I support the rights and opinions of trans people, except you."

Nope. It doesn't hurt you to do a simple thing such as use the preferred pronoun. It does hurt the person you're misgendering when you do so. There is no equivalence here.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

I'm sure very few will accuse you of compassion towards those you misgender with relish.

Because acts that qualify as compassionate only by virtue of your beliefs are not likely to meet general standards of compassionate behaviour and communication. Your particular form of 'being cruel to be kind' is laughable and whilst it is clear you have a self-justification and internal logic for it, dont expect it to wash more broadly.

Interesting, 'misgendering' is always to be condemned, but physical and rhetorical violence by males against females can be justified...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What in this interview does Greer say that you object to?

Thread about that Greer interview that way >>>>>>>>

 

[Miranda Yardley]

All it means is a minor caveat clause being appended to particular pronouns (those pronouns always having been occasionally problematic in any case).
The alternative is a combative simplistic absolutism.

You realise female pronouns are a fairly recent invention?

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Thread about that Greer interview that way >>>>>>>>

I was asking you, not asking for you to direct me to someone else's opinions.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was asking you, not asking for you to direct me to someone else's opinions.

You will find my opinions in that thread. Can't be arsed watching the interview again.

 

[mojo pixy]

Having suffered both male and female violence throughout my life, and having no preference between the two, I'd like to go on the record as condemning both. FWIW.

 

[Miranda Yardley]

Nope. It doesn't hurt you to do a simple thing such as use the preferred pronoun. It does hurt the person you're misgendering when you do so. There is no equivalence here.

Well, yes it does: compelling everyone to use language that conforms to individual's subjective personal identities instead of the conventional language, is an attack on free speech and personal liberty. It is exactly what Orwell wrote about in 1946's 'Politics and the English Language'. (Whatever political disagreement we may have, I'd wholeheartedly recommend you read this essay, it's completely bloody brilliant).

 

[Miranda Yardley]

You will find my opinions in that thread. Can't be arsed watching the interview again.

Was that a pout?

 

[elbows]

Interesting, 'misgendering' is always to be condemned, but physical and rhetorical violence by males against females can be justified...

I wonder how I was able to predict from the start that you would persist with this utter bullshit. I never justified any such thing, nor came anywhere even vaguely close. Dull.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well, yes it does: compelling everyone to use language that conforms to individual's subjective personal identities instead of the conventional language, is an attack on free speech and personal liberty. It is exactly what Orwell wrote about in 1946's 'Politics and the English Language'. (Whatever political disagreement we may have, I'd wholeheartedly recommend you read this essay, it's completely bloody brilliant).

Aside from on the internet, I've yet to meet anyone who has taken such a stand. People generally act in a way that tries, however clumsily, to respect the wishes and feelings of the trans person in question. The idea that expecting people to respect those wishes is an attack on free speech and personal liberty is absurd. You are making absurd arguments now.