Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[bimble]

I request a female nurse to do my cervical smear tests. Maybe the system will just adapt to ask you to specify whether you are or aren't including trans women when you request that. Would that be a problem?

 

[hot air baboon]

Junior doctors used to boast about how many "Tubes" they had done. The initials stood for Totally Unnecessary Breast Examinations.

Health: Hands off my chest, doctor

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Notably a procedure that neither smokedout or spookyfrank have to endure.

 

[Athos]

Cis doesn't just mean 'not trans'...

Yet many assert exactly that. And others imply it. For instance, smokedout seemed to be suggesting it. When I queried it, they threw their toys out of the pram. And have studiously ignored the question of whether someone can be neither cis nor trans, that's been repeated since.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Notably a procedure that neither smokedout or spookyfrank have to endure.

I've had my genitals examined, and operated on, by both male and female staff. My preference would have been that none of it was necessary in the first place, but beyond that any qualified professional is fine with me. And I know it's not the same for boys and my opinion doesn't count for much, but the 'sexual assault' idea has not come from the patient involved at all, but from some twitter rent-a-gob (the loathsome extent of whose bigotry is exposed elsewhere on this thread) who has decided to weigh in because it suited her agenda to do so.

I sympathise with the patient, both because she experienced something that made her uncomfortable and because the anti-trans brigade has dragged her into the gutter press on the back of it.

I also sympathise with the nurse, who deserves better than to be characterised as a rapist simply for doing, or attempting to do her job.

 

[bemused]

I sympathise with the patient, both because she experienced something that made her uncomfortable and because the anti-trans brigade has dragged her into the gutter press on the back of it.

You'd think that folks were emotionally intelligent enough to accept that in some cases people will want to discriminate. When you are naked and being poked around by a group of people that would seem, to me at least, one of those scenarios where that discrimination would be understandable.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I also sympathise with the nurse, who deserves better than to be characterised as a rapist simply for doing, or attempting to do her job.

I sympathise with the nurse as it was entirely avoidable - the hospital could have taken steps to prevent this situation arising.
Although, if the law passes and someone’s gender can be declared by themselves, would the hospital have any legal standing to somehow prevent it happening in future?

 

[smokedout]

Yet many assert exactly that. And others imply it. For instance, smokedout seemed to be suggesting it. When I queried it, they threw their toys out of the pram. And have studiously ignored the question of whether someone can be neither cis nor trans, that's been repeated since.

No I haven't, but I'm not interested in getting into petty point scoring over things you think I've said.

 

[Red Cat]

Yet many assert exactly that. And others imply it. For instance, smokedout seemed to be suggesting it. When I queried it, they threw their toys out of the pram. And have studiously ignored the question of whether someone can be neither cis nor trans, that's been repeated since.

I don't think that's accurate Athos.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I sympathise with the nurse as it was entirely avoidable - the hospital could have taken steps to prevent this situation arising.
Although, if the law passes and someone’s gender can be declared by themselves, would the hospital have any legal standing to somehow prevent it happening in future?

Looking at the current law, if the nurse in question had legally changed gender, as it stands now, it appears that the hospital would have been prevented from acting. Exception is made for religious marriages and competing in sport, but there's nothing else in there, and indeed an employer even revealing that a person has changed gender is in most cases illegal. Reading the act, the issue doesn't appear to have been considered at all.

 

[co-op]

Do you apply the same standards to non-trans women？ Are they only deserving of support if they reject gender binaries altogether (a miniscule fraction of the worldwide female population)? Are they all right-wing if they don't agree? Or is it only transgender people who's support is qualified in this way.

I'm not sure why you're confused about my opinion here but here goes.

I think we should support non-trans women who advocate for, live as, etc etc a pov relating to gender which is non-hierarchical, non-binary, and non-prescriptive or coercive, especially, of course, when they are up against binary-normative, hierarchical, etc etc groups that seek to legitimise or normalise reactionary gender stereotyping (even if those groups are made up of non-trans women). This follows obviously from everything I've posted, right?

Yes I think those women who argue for right-wing reactionary positions are right wing. Don't you?

Equally I think exactly the same about groups of or individual transwomen advocating. As I said - and you quoted - The point is radicals should support radical transgender people, not right wing ones who often love rigid gender dichotomies. This is what this thread has been about.

This means that sometimes I criticise some transwomen's pov and also I criticise concepts like "cis" which seem to me to be inherently binary-normative. According to some this makes me a transphobe. Do you think so?

 

[MochaSoul]

it appears that the hospital would have been prevented from acting.

I think much distress would have been avoided both to patient and nurse (I can't think the situation as outlined was easy on the nurse) by asking patients who make these sorts of requests whether they include/exclude transgender people in those requests. Don't hospitals have a duty of care toward their staff as well as their patients? Or do they think society has evolved beyond gender issues just because of a change in the law? Such a simple measure would have avoided much controversy, it would've denied the newspapers a story and it would have protected the nurse herself without outing them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think much distress would have been avoided both to patient and nurse (I can't think the situation as outlined was easy on the nurse) by asking patients who make these sorts of requests whether they include/exclude transgender people in those requests. Don't hospitals have a duty of care toward their staff as well as their patients? Or do they think society has evolved beyond gender issues just because of a change in the law? Such a simple measure would have avoided much controversy, it would've denied the newspapers a story and it would have protected the nurse herself without outing them.

This particular case, even as outlined in the shitty press outlets that are gleefully reporting it and whose bias I do not trust, does smack of a hospital-level fuck-up that could and should have been avoided.

The nurse in question had not legally changed gender, I believe, so the hospital was legally free to act as it saw fit. There is a clash of interests here where people wish to be allowed to legally change their gender and to have that fact protected to the extent that discrimination laws apply for them in their new gender. Allowing people to choose not to use a transgender person who has legally changed gender does prevent that transgender person from fully living with the law applying to their new gender only - a vestige of their past follows them.

The law is often too blunt an instrument to accommodate every eventuality, which is where a level of benign hypocrisy can come in, in medicine above all, as it does for instance with euthanasia. I don't know if some level of benign hypocrisy might help here. The current law doesn't even mention this kind of situation, and I'm not quite sure how it could. What kinds of compromises might we reasonably expect people to make?

It also doesn't help that the law currently conflates gender with sex in a messy, inconsistent way.

 

[Red Cat]

We usually learn from making mistakes. Most law and policy that you'll learn about as a health care worker will have been developed following a mistake (and often very serious systemic level fuck ups)

 

[smokedout]

Looking at the current law, if the nurse in question had legally changed gender, as it stands now, it appears that the hospital would have been prevented from acting. Exception is made for religious marriages and competing in sport, but there's nothing else in there, and indeed an employer even revealing that a person has changed gender is in most cases illegal. Reading the act, the issue doesn't appear to have been considered at all.

The relevant law comes under the Equalities Act which permits discrimination if it is proprtionate to meet a legitimate aim, which in this case almost certainly would be.

Having a gender recognition certificate makes no difference to discrimination laws which are based on whether someone is perceived or known to be, or to have undertaken gender transition.

Self declaration would not affect this, the whole man could just fill in a form and demand to access womens spaces thing was a lie.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The relevant law comes under the Equalities Act which permits discrimination if it is proprtionate to meet a legitimate aim, which in this case almost certainly would be.

Having a gender recognition certificate makes no difference to discrimination laws which are based on whether someone is perceived or known to be, or to have undertaken gender transition.

Self declaration would not affect this, the whole man could just fill in a form and demand to access womens spaces thing was a lie.

It still seems mixed up and unclear to me. It doesn't help that the law currently doesn't make a clear distinction between sex and gender. So the nine protected characteristics currently include 'sex' and 'gender reassignment'.

There is this, Schedule 22: protection of women. This paragraph, perhaps:

The references to the protection of women are references to protecting women in relation to—

(a)pregnancy or maternity, or

(b)any other circumstances giving rise to risks specifically affecting women.

There is potential for a clash between the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment, which would then need clarification, I think. I don't think the law is clear at the moment. It's not unique to this situation: there are also other clashes, such as between religious belief and other protected characteristics such as sexual orientation.

 

[Pickman's model]

It still seems mixed up and unclear to me. It doesn't help that the law currently doesn't make a clear distinction between sex and gender. So the nine protected characteristics currently include 'sex' and 'gender reassignment'.

There is this, Schedule 22: protection of women. This paragraph, perhaps:



There is potential for a clash between the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment, which would then need clarification, I think. I don't think the law is clear at the moment. It's not unique to this situation: there are also other clashes, such as between religious belief and other protected characteristics such as sexual orientation.

so much repetition in such a short post

 

[TopCat]

I think much distress would have been avoided both to patient and nurse (I can't think the situation as outlined was easy on the nurse) by asking patients who make these sorts of requests whether they include/exclude transgender people in those requests. Don't hospitals have a duty of care toward their staff as well as their patients? Or do they think society has evolved beyond gender issues just because of a change in the law? Such a simple measure would have avoided much controversy, it would've denied the newspapers a story and it would have protected the nurse herself without outing them.

Do people think it appropriate to refuse a nurse because they are trans?

 

[bimble]

Do people think it appropriate to refuse a nurse because they are trans?

I don't know about 'people' but I think yes on balance that should be a thing you are allowed to choose, that when you said you want a female nurse for something like this procedure you should be able to state whether you did (or didn't) mean a biological female. As littlebabyjesus says though there are two competing 'rights' in play so its not a simple question.

 

[smokedout]

It still seems mixed up and unclear to me. It doesn't help that the law currently doesn't make a clear distinction between sex and gender. So the nine protected characteristics currently include 'sex' and 'gender reassignment'.

There is this, Schedule 22: protection of women. This paragraph, perhaps:



There is potential for a clash between the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment, which would then need clarification, I think. I don't think the law is clear at the moment. It's not unique to this situation: there are also other clashes, such as between religious belief and other protected characteristics such as sexual orientation.

One of the reasons that the Equalities Committee recommended reform of the GRA is that there has been literally no case law since it was enacted, so many things remain untested. Something which undermines the claim that giving trans people rights will lead to a flood of legal challenges from men demanding access to womens spaces.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Junior doctors used to boast about how many "Tubes" they had done. The initials stood for Totally Unnecessary Breast Examinations.

Health: Hands off my chest, doctor

I suffered that as a younger woman with asthma - as a 16 yoear old I wondered how many doctors needed to listen to my chest, but now I'm older there wouldn't be such a queue.

When it comes to internal examinations I've had a few bad experiences with male NHS like 'it shouldn't hurt, the cervix has very few nerve endings' ooww! But then I've had a couple of bad experiences with (I presume straight cis) female staff like having to come out about my sexuality then having convince a nurse that yes lesbians do need smear tests. I could do without any gender of staff being over friendly and trying to chat while they have their hand inside you. I wish I'd spoken out and requested a different member of staff back then, instead of swallowing my embarassment.

Its improved over the years and I presume that is down to improved staff awareness and training. All invasive proceedures need fully trained staff, proper introductions and routinely offering a chaperone service if its wanted.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Do people think it appropriate to refuse a nurse because they are trans?

I think it's useful to ask yourself/ourselves the questions we ask of others...

Are there any procedures that you would absolutely prefer a male medical practitioner performed on you?

If so...walk yourself through a scenario where you are attending a clinic to have that done...you will be feeling anxious/worried/uncomfortable <------that's how I feel about smear tests because of the fucking victorian anti-female apparatus that is still used

I prefer a female nurse, it just makes me hope that they will understand and be more gentle (wishful thinking sometimes, I know)...I have had smears performed by male nurses and tbh it just made me more tense, which in the case of smears equals more pain...'Just relax, let your legs flop. Millions of these are done every day.'..MANFUCKINGSPLAINING...no lie Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, no, I can't, male or female, this actually hurts!

So I asked myself the same question and wondered if I would have refused the smear if my most recent nurse had been trans and looked more male/masculine to me... I think I would have at least questioned/asked.

 

[TopCat]

I think it's useful to ask yourself/ourselves the questions we ask of others...

Are there any procedures that you would absolutely prefer a male medical practitioner performed on you?

If so...walk yourself through a scenario where you are attending a clinic to have that done...you will be feeling anxious/worried/uncomfortable <------that's how I feel about smear tests because of the fucking victorian anti-female apparatus that is still used

I prefer a female nurse, it just makes me hope that they will understand and be more gentle (wishful thinking sometimes, I know)...I have had smears performed by male nurses and tbh it just made me more tense, which in the case of smears equals more pain...'Just relax, let your legs flop. Millions of these are done every day.'..MANFUCKINGSPLAINING...no lie Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, no, I can't, male or female, this actually hurts!

So I asked myself the same question and wondered if I would have refused the smear if my most recent nurse had been trans and looked more male/masculine to me... I think I would have at least questioned/asked.

I haven't thus far ever requested a male medical practitioner and have never been presented with a choice either.
I dont think men get offered as a rule to express a preference.
I'm usually just hoping for a bit of empathy and clear communication from anyone who treats me.
I would not want women having this choice removed for gynocological issues. But outside of such intimate procedures, expressing a preference of no trans doctors is going to whiff of bigotry.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it's useful to ask yourself/ourselves the questions we ask of others...

I agree that it's useful, but we need to be careful with it. There is no situation where I'd care either way, but I need not to use that as a way of judging the sensitivities of others, because I know full well that others are not like me over this.

That said, FOD makes a good point - a person who also has the thing they're examining is going to know what it feels like and perhaps be a bit more gentle. I'm reminded of a woman who visited our office a couple of years ago. The office labrador was lying on his back, displaying himself as usual, and she went 'oo, look at his big balls' and flicked them with her finger. Every man in the office flinched involuntarily.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I agree that it's useful, but we need to be careful with it. There is no situation where I'd care either way, but I need not to use that as a way of judging the sensitivities of others, because I know full well that others are not like me over this.

The point of asking ourselves is to seriously ponder what our own associations, preferences and experiences are. Yes be careful but my request is more about being real and honest. You need to be real and honest about the fact you don't have smear tests so I have found a situation where I do care either way and you haven't...that is a useful acknowledgement for you I think.

That said, FOD makes a good point - a person who also has the thing they're examining is going to know what it feels like and perhaps be a bit more gentle.

I made the same point. Thanks.

 

[Athos]

No I haven't, but I'm not interested in getting into petty point scoring over things you think I've said.

Ok. But maybe you could confirm what you do now think. Does cis just mean not trans? Or is it possible to be neither?

 

[MochaSoul]

Do people think it appropriate to refuse a nurse because they are trans?

You'd be surprised at my wishlist. I'd spent my childhood/adolescence with a slight fear of needles but, my mum being one of the main community nurse in charge of vaccinations and drawing bloods and stuff I'd more or less come to terms, "Okay! So it's a needle. It's never as bad as all of that." Until I left my home town. My experience of white people trying to find my swollen bloody veins is terrifying to think of, culminating the time when my hand was perforated 21 times (you read correctly, twenty one) as they tried to give me the amoxicilin intravenously. Then they called the anesthetist to numb my hand before they could carry on pricking me some more. The worst about that particular experience, is that my mum was on hand and I could see it in her eyes that she knew exactly where the vein was and so I started begging her to do it herself (anyone who knows about my relationship with my mum at that point knows that I must have been on my knees to ask her anything). She had come especially so the whole "White people suck at finding black people's veins" as gone into the epic retelling of my son's birth. :-D Anyhoo... shift change or something and enter black midwife, and a minute later amoxicilin is flowing as the doc ordered. Of course, by then, I'm screaming for the epidural I had previously decided not to undergo " I JUST WANT ALL THIS PAIN TO STOP!"... and it's too late for it.
In all seriousness, If I didn't feel embarrassed to ask (I curse my fucking conscience every fucking time), I'd never let a white person near my veins. As it is, I keep putting off blood analysis (I have a sometimes bad case of anaemia, that needs monitoring), until my GP (who has no idea why we always go through the rigmarole) tells me off for it.

I think I would have at least questioned/asked.

Hell fucking yeah! Me too.

 

[SpookyFrank]

You'd be surprised at my wishlist. I'd spent my childhood/adolescence with a slight fear of needles but, my mum being one of the main community nurse in charge of vaccinations and drawing bloods and stuff I'd more or less come to terms, "Okay! So it's a needle. It's never as bad as all of that." Until I left my home town. My experience of white people trying to find my swollen bloody veins is terrifying to think of, culminating the time when my hand was perforated 21 times (you read correctly, twenty one) as they tried to give me the amoxicilin intravenously. Then they called the anesthetist to numb my hand before they could carry on pricking me some more. The worst about that particular experience, is that my mum was on hand and I could see it in her eyes that she knew exactly where the vein was and so I started begging her to do it herself (anyone who knows about my relationship with my mum at that point knows that I must have been on my knees to ask her anything). She had come especially so the whole "White people suck at finding black people's veins" as gone into the epic retelling of my son's birth. :-D Anyhoo... shift change or something and enter black midwife, and a minute later amoxicilin is flowing as the doc ordered. Of course, by then, I'm screaming for the epidural I had previously decided not to undergo " I JUST WANT ALL THIS PAIN TO STOP!"... and it's too late for it.
In all seriousness, If I didn't feel embarrassed to ask (I curse my fucking conscience every fucking time), I'd never let a white person near my veins. As it is, I keep putting off blood analysis (I have a sometimes bad case of anaemia, that needs monitoring), until my GP (who has no idea why we always go through the rigmarole) tells me off for it.

Hell fucking yeah! Me too.

Mrs Frank had a similar experience before christmas, staff unable to find a vein to administer general anaesthetic.

When she came round afterwards to find a black nurse attending to her, her first slurred words were, 'oh thank god you're not white'

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'm not white. I have to direct nurses to my hands every time I have to have blood taken. Some argue and proceed to prick and miss a few times insisting that they are the champion blood takers before conceding that perhaps, I actually do know what I am talking about, from experience. Imagine that.

My ethnicity has never been listed as a reason and to be honest I have never concluded it's because I'm not White. We can see my veins in my arms, inner arm, fairly light brown skin etc, but they refuse to give any fucker blood...small, thin and deep are the words i've heard used to describe my veins on the inside of my arms. Yeah I know, take the fucking blood from the back of my hand please, like I said before

 

[Athos]

The relevant law comes under the Equalities Act which permits discrimination if it is proprtionate to meet a legitimate aim, which in this case almost certainly would be.

Though the committee whose views you seem to endorse recommends doing away with those protections. Is that something with which you agree?