Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[DotCommunist]

anders breivik and melanie philips both fans of the term.

 

[smokedout]

I should think any way of being human is too complex to sum up in a one liner. But the argument on that thread was presented in quite a categorical way - mine and others experience of wanting to be boys when we were younger was dismissed as not the same thing. Now I don't think that one thread on urban is representative of anything, but I think you're minimising how hard it was then to have a discussion, and how hard it continues to be..

Given you didn't grow up to be trans then perhaps it wasn't the same thing? Or perhaps as you said its a continuum. The evidence shows that many children go through periods of some kind of gender nonconformity or even dysphoria but it is the strength of that dysphoria that is the best predicter of whether someone becomes a trans adult. Yours diminished in adulthood to a point where you could live with, for many trans people it gets worse, often building to a crisis point which leads them to socially or medically transition.

I suspect what rankles is the idea that some form of gender discomfort in childhood is the same as transgenderism is the implication that the first group managed to cure themselves and as such trans adults are deficient in some way for not doing the same. Or their feelings are not really authentic and if they just developed a radical analysis of gender they'd be fine.

Until recently most trans people presented for treatment in middle age, often after a lifetime of denial and self-repression. All the evidence shows it is not something that goes away. For someone to say they felt like that's bit as a kid but it mostly went away does not match with the typical transgender experience which is why most would say it's not the same thing, or if it is it is very different in magnitude. Perhaps a better understanding could be reached if there was a general acceptance that all feelings of gender unease, discomfort or dysphoria are sincere and authentic, whether someone ends up cis or trans, or does not feel comfortable identifying as eithetr, which is fine.

That doesn't remove the need for a descriptive antonym for trans though, even if like all such binaries, including man/woman, it does not quite adequately explain everyone.

 

[xenon]

Was Cacadores banned earlier, unbanned and re-banned today? Sure I read this before going out last night and they were banned then.
/not important

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Was Cacadores banned earlier, unbanned and re-banned today? Sure I read this before going out last night and they were banned then.
/not important

At twenty to two this morning. Reason - N/A

 

[xenon]

I must have read this thread this morning when pissed.

 

[Red Cat]

Given you didn't grow up to be trans then perhaps it wasn't the same thing? Or perhaps as you said its a continuum. The evidence shows that many children go through periods of some kind of gender nonconformity or even dysphoria but it is the strength of that dysphoria that is the best predicter of whether someone becomes a trans adult. Yours diminished in adulthood to a point where you could live with, for many trans people it gets worse, often building to a crisis point which leads them to socially or medically transition.

I suspect what rankles is the idea that some form of gender discomfort in childhood is the same as transgenderism is the implication that the first group managed to cure themselves and as such trans adults are deficient in some way for not doing the same. Or their feelings are not really authentic and if they just developed a radical analysis of gender they'd be fine.

Until recently most trans people presented for treatment in middle age, often after a lifetime of denial and self-repression. All the evidence shows it is not something that goes away. For someone to say they felt like that's bit as a kid but it mostly went away does not match with the typical transgender experience which is why most would say it's not the same thing, or if it is it is very different in magnitude. Perhaps a better understanding could be reached if there was a general acceptance that all feelings of gender unease, discomfort or dysphoria are sincere and authentic, whether someone ends up cis or trans, or does not feel comfortable identifying as eithetr, which is fine.

That doesn't remove the need for a descriptive antonym for trans though, even if like all such binaries, including man/woman, it does not quite adequately explain everyone.

I wasn't arguing that it was the same, didn't do so in that thread, and haven't done in this one. I was referring to the use of the category transgender or gender dysphoria being used in a way that when I was wondering if it was a continuum I was told clearly that it wasn't. Now, I don't know if it is a continuum, I think there are points at which something becomes qualitatively different, and categorical boundaries and definitions are useful, but that's what discussion is for.

I said absolutely nothing about cure. The idea that you suggest rankles is very far from anything I have thought or posted.

Perhaps it may be better if people's attempts at exploration were also seen as sincere and authentic rather than as expressions of arguments met elsewhere that look a bit the same but aren't.

 

[smokedout]

I wasn't arguing that it was the same, didn't do so in that thread, and haven't done in this one. I was referring to the use of the category transgender or gender dysphoria being used in a way that when I was wondering if it was a continuum I was told clearly that it wasn't. Now, I don't know if it is a continuum, I think there are points at which something becomes qualitatively different, and categorical boundaries and definitions are useful, but that's what discussion is for.

I said absolutely nothing about cure. The idea that you suggest rankles is very far from anything I have thought or posted.

Perhaps it may be better if people's attempts at exploration were also seen as sincere and authentic rather than as expressions of arguments met elsewhere that look a bit the same but aren't.

I wasn't suggesting you made that argument, just pointing out an implication that could, and often is drawn from such an argument, either by the person making it or those reading it.

 

[Red Cat]

I wasn't suggesting you made that argument, just pointing out an implication that could, and often is drawn from such an argument, either by the person making it or those reading it.

Thanks for making that clearer.

 

[Jonti]

This video from India's transgender community went viral it seems. It gets really funny at one minute in when it features "The Seatbelt Crew" in action. Highly recommended.

 

[Athos]

I suspect what rankles is the idea that That doesn't remove the need for a descriptive antonym for trans though, even if like all such binaries, including man/woman, it does not quite adequately explain everyone.

So you accept, now, that there are people who are neither trans nor cis, then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Fabian Society are shit.

Not least because they still haven't learned, after almost 140 years, that top-down reformism and social engineering don't work. Mind you, the fact that all the Fabians I know are centre-right shits, probably doesn't help them.

 

[Shechemite]

all the Fabians I know

This will be remembered at the People’s Tribunal.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This will be remembered at the People’s Tribunal.

One has to know the enemy, in order to understand the enemy, comrade.

 

[Shechemite]

One has to know the enemy, in order to understand the enemy, comrade.

You expect us to believe that?

 

[weepiper]

I've seen a lot of tweets accusing the woman who refused a trans woman to do her smear test of being a bigot. Fuck that, frankly. A smear test is an incredibly invasive thing that we have to submit ourselves to, they're NOT FUN and anything that makes it more distressing like having someone you didn't agree to doing it is a perfectly valid reason to feel too uncomfortable to go ahead with it. I can't actually believe this is in question.

 

[Shechemite]

I've seen a lot of tweets accusing the woman who refused a trans woman to do her smear test of being a bigot. Fuck that, frankly. A smear test is an incredibly invasive thing that we have to submit ourselves to, they're NOT FUN and anything that makes it more distressing like having someone you didn't agree to doing it is a perfectly valid reason to feel too uncomfortable to go ahead with it. I can't actually believe this is in question.

Tbf ive called a racist for not wanting MH staff to talk to each other in their (non-English) languages in front of me (or other patients) when seeking help in a crisis.

There’s a denial of vulnerability across the board in the NHS and social care.

 

[smokedout]

I've seen a lot of tweets accusing the woman who refused a trans woman to do her smear test of being a bigot. Fuck that, frankly. A smear test is an incredibly invasive thing that we have to submit ourselves to, they're NOT FUN and anything that makes it more distressing like having someone you didn't agree to doing it is a perfectly valid reason to feel too uncomfortable to go ahead with it. I can't actually believe this is in question.

Meanwhile Dr Radfem is accusing the nurse of trying to force the patient into state sanctioned sexual abuse. Both extremes best ignored I'd say.

Pretty shitty for the nurse though, having her gender and appearance deconstructed on the front pages of the right wing press just for doing her job.

 

[Shechemite]

just for doing her job.

A nurse ignoring a patients distress (and causing unnecessary distress) and overriding their wishes is ‘just doing their job’?

 

[Shechemite]

And what’s so ‘extreme’ about describing the unwanted touching/viewing of/intrusion into genitalia as sexual abuse?

 

[smokedout]

And what’s so ‘extreme’ about describing the unwanted touching/viewing of/intrusion into genitalia as sexual abuse?

Sexual abuse generally has a sexual or power based motive, not a medical one.

Worth noting the NHS apologised for a 'recording error' along with conceding the nurse could have been more professional. So an admin fuck up and a stroppy nurse led to someone having a smear test re-scheduled. Hardly front page news, unless you're a right wing newspaper using it to have a go at both transpeople and the NHS.

 

[smokedout]

Seriously what do we know about this incident? Woman books smear test and requests female nurse. Trans nurse turns up and is told she's a man by patient. Nurse explains she's trans, woman says she'd rather have a cis nurse and reschedules. NHS says ok and apologises. Right wing press goes into meltdown over political correctness gone mad. Rad fems accuse the nurse of sexual abuse.

People need to have a proper word with themselves imo if their 'concerns' about transgenderism are leading them to support this shitty tabloid anti-worker bollocks.

 

[Shechemite]

a stroppy nurse .

Who in your previous post was ‘just doing their job’.

It’s notable that the distress and wishes of patients in a vulnerable state isn’t part of your commentary here. You do seem unable to see things from the views of those other than your chosen ‘side’

 

[smokedout]

Who in your previous post was ‘just doing their job’.’

Well I presume that was her intention when she walked in the room.

I

t’s notable that the distress and wishes of patients in a vulnerable state isn’t part of your commentary here. You do seem unable to see things from the views of those other than your chosen ‘side

Not at all, her distress (although embarrassment is the word she used) has been well covered. I was just pointing out the other side of the story as a way to highlight what is is a thinly veiled two pronged attack on both trans rights and the NHS by the Murdoch press. And one terfs are happy to go along with if it gives them a chance to smear a transwoman as a sexual abuser.

 

[Shechemite]

Well I presume that was her intention when she walked in the room.

And then went on to be ‘stroppy’, as raised by the patient and acknowledged by yourself. So not ‘just doing their job’

her distress (although embarrassment is the word she used)

You lying little worm. Why do you think being dishonest is a useful tactic? She described herself as being distressed.

 

[smokedout]

And then went on to be ‘stroppy’, as raised by the patient and acknowledged by yourself. So not ‘just doing their job’

Not acknowledged by the patient in any version of the story I saw, the stroppy comment was inferred by me on the basis of the NHS apology which said the nurse could have been more professional. The only reported complaint from the patient was that she was trans and looked like a man.

You lying little worm. Why do you think being dishonest is a useful tactic? She described herself as being distressed.

Apologies, the report I read just said embarrassed. Others say embarrassed and distressed. I'm sure it was upsetting for both the patient and the nurse. Not front page news upsetting though, unless your agenda is to incite fear and hatred of trans women and to undermine the NHS. Which was the only point of this story.

 

[smokedout]

I find it astonishing that anyone on the left could join in a Murdoch press attack on a working class person who was just doing their job. Whatever you think of trans rights its not the nurse's fault this happened. We've already seen one suicide after the press came after a transwoman like this: Trans teacher believed to have killed herself 'had told of press harassment'

 

[smmudge]

Er where did you get that I’m ‘trying to deny he antecedent’? If could kindly not make stuff up

Anyway, you’re missing the point.

Gendered roles for men and women - and the compliance with these roles - isn’t the same as a gender identity.

And given that Cis simply means ‘not trans’, what’s your point anyway?

ETA you’re also ignoring the post I quoted, and the claim it made

Cis doesn't just mean 'not trans', as has been pointed out, yes they are antonyms but it is a spectrum, there are other identities. Not everyone who defies gendered expectations is trans, and may also be cis - and that assertion is entirely consistent with smokedout's post.

There is identity theory as discussed above which suggests performance cannot be extricated from identity, it is one I personally subscribe to. The 'role' is not identity but the performance is, even if this is just to yourself, so this person would not be cis either:

So where does this leave biological men who perform the masuline role but internally identify as a woman?

Because it uses a much wider concept of performance, which is not distinguished from an "internal identity".

 

[bimble]

smmudge what theory are you talking about? Do you mean Judith Butler's ideas about gender as performative or are you talking about some other theory with a more wishy washy idea that might include something like an 'internal identity' ?

 

[Red Cat]

Goffman's theory of social identity and role was discussed briefly not so long ago.

eta Not talking for smmudge , just noting that was the most recent identity theory mentioned on the thread.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And what’s so ‘extreme’ about describing the unwanted touching/viewing of/intrusion into genitalia as sexual abuse?

Extremely disingenuous when referring to a medical procedure for which the patient has given consent.