The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

[Edie]

Have replied on the Ukraine refugee thread Edie.

Oh I didn’t see there was a specific thread about this. Ta will take a look later

 

[hitmouse]

This is a republishing of an old text about Maidan and the previous war, but still an interesting read for worthwhile background, especially about what "antifascism" is used to mean in the Russian and Ukrainian contexts:

A Very Long Winter

War transforms everything – we are suddenly for or against armies, revolutionaries become soldiers, coalitions monopolize politics, patriotic fervor swells, and the party of order triumphs. When th…

thenewinquiry.com

Worth a read, but there's a few glaring factual errors - they mention "This song, “What We Feel,” was composed by the band Till the End" when they actually mean a song called Till the End by What We Feel, and while Mozgovoy said was disgusting I'm not sure he actually said he what they represent him as saying.

For context, here's a response from MDB and WWF to criticisms of the Russian antifa scene:

MDB and WWF: against hate, discrimination, and inner-scene elitis | linksunten Archiv

linksunten.indymedia.org

 

[Dystopiary]

This is a republishing of an old text about Maidan and the previous war, but still an interesting read for worthwhile background, especially about what "antifascism" is used to mean in the Russian and Ukrainian contexts:

A Very Long Winter

War transforms everything – we are suddenly for or against armies, revolutionaries become soldiers, coalitions monopolize politics, patriotic fervor swells, and the party of order triumphs. When th…

thenewinquiry.com

Worth a read, but there's a few glaring factual errors - they mention "This song, “What We Feel,” was composed by the band Till the End" when they actually mean a song called Till the End by What We Feel, and while Mozgovoy said was disgusting I'm not sure he actually said he what they represent him as saying.

For context, here's a response from MDB and WWF to criticisms of the Russian antifa scene:

MDB and WWF: against hate, discrimination, and inner-scene elitis | linksunten Archiv

linksunten.indymedia.org

Indymedia, there's a blast from the past. Shame about the UK one.

 

[hitmouse]

A few more practical things, mostly from Germany for whatever reason:
Here's a report of what people from Hamburg have been up to:

Anarchist Solidarity – Operation Solidarity

operation-solidarity.org

More Russian-owned properties were squatted in Koln this week:

These people seem to be raising money specifically for deserters:

Fahnenflucht-Support-Desertion

Solidarischer Handel mit zapatistischen und widerständigen Kooperativen. Bio-Kaffee und Espresso für den täglichen Aufstand.

www.cafe-libertad.de

Someone's set up a UK crowdfunder to support Operation Solidarity's work in helping refugees get out of the country:

Help raise £1000 to Support grassroots Romanian organisations doing incredible work at the border of Ukraine to help war refugees.

Weʼre raising money to Support grassroots Romanian organisations doing incredible work at the border of Ukraine to help war refugees.. Support this JustGiving Crowdfunding Page.

www.justgiving.com

 

[hitmouse]

Online talk on Thursday:

Global Solidarity: Against the states and the militarization of the planet // Thursday 17th March

solidarityagainstinvasion.noblogs.org

8pm in Greece and Ukraine, 7pm in Germany, 6pm UK time.

 

[steeplejack]

Thanks for sharing, should be an interesting event.

 

[zahir]

I wasn't sure what the right thread for this was.

 

[Edie]

Full extent of my 16yo opinion on the subject

 

[Dystopiary]

Rest in Power Igor.

 

[zahir]

Report on the Resistance Committee from El País. The voiceover is in Spanish but the interviews are in English. Report by https://twitter.com/Hibai_

Anarquistas ucranios toman las armas contra la invasión rusa

EL PAÍS acompaña a varios de estos activistas en el batallón al que también se han sumado antiautoritarios y antifascistas

elpais.com

eta: for anyone who can understand Spanish here's a video from Gulai Polye, made just before the invasion, about the way Makhno is remembered in his home town.



Another report on the Resistance Committee in Spanish.

Los anarquistas ucranianos se organizan en milicias armadas para combatir a los invasores rusos

Tras un intenso debate interno, los antifascistas ucranianos han constituido varias unidades militares para plantar cara al bárbaro Ejército de Vladimir Putin. Las milicias Rev Dia, Black Flag y Black Headquarter son la respuesta libertaria a la ocupación.

www.publico.es

 

[kebabking]

They'll be announcing in the Ukrainian speakers momentarily - I mean, they will, won't they?

 

[co-op]

View attachment 314703

They'll be announcing in the Ukrainian speakers momentarily - I mean, they will, won't they?

Of course they will, they were always really great on this sort of thing at their teach-ins on Israel's security concerns.

 

[LDC]

Not one

View attachment 314703

They'll be announcing in the Ukrainian speakers momentarily - I mean, they will, won't they?

From the blurb...

"There will be discussion of Ukraine's history, NATO's record, the question of self-determination, the threat of nuclear war, attacks on Russian culture and the issue of refugees."

"...attacks on Russian culture..." but nothing on the actual Russian attack. They're such absolute fucks.

 

[JimW]

Not one


From the blurb...

"There will be discussion of Ukraine's history, NATO's record, the question of self-determination, the threat of nuclear war, attacks on Russian culture and the issue of refugees."

"...attacks on Russian culture..." but nothing on the actual Russian attack. They're such absolute fucks.

Sure their version of Ukraine's history will be enlightening too.

 

[hitmouse]

Sure their version of Ukraine's history will be enlightening too.

That one won't take too long to cover, it's only been about a hundred years since Lenin invented it.

 

[LDC]

There's some info going around about the Italian union USB (Unione Sindacale di Base) refusing to load weapons bound for Ukraine, and it's been a bit promoted here by some of the 'no war but the class war' ultraleft types and others. Ignoring that for the moment, the USB have an interesting take on the events when you start to have a look through their posts in the last few months. A quick translation of a bit here for example...

Appeal of the Trade Union Federation of the Lugansk People's Republic to the world community with the demand to stop the war in Donbass!

National, 21/02/2022 14:33

The war unleashed by Kiev in 2014 against the citizens of Donbass can no longer be ignored! After seven years, the bombings, sabotage and provocations of the Ukrainian armed forces still devastate the territory of the Donbass. In all these years of bloody war, thousands of our civilians have been killed and tens of thousands of destinies have been destroyed!

In the last few days, the situation on the front line has significantly worsened. Ukrainian armed forces cruelly and cynically bomb our territory and continue to increase their military potential. Contrary to common sense and international agreements, Kiev continues to concentrate men and heavy military equipment along the entire front line. Now the Ukrainian aggressor plans not only to continue provocations on the front line, but also to organize a deep penetration into the territory of our Republic.

For all these years, we have been calling on the international community to stand up for the innocent civilians of the Donbass. Today we demand an end to the conflict and the protection of our people's right to life and freedom. Silence is a crime!

Kiev is a puppet in the hands of the US, NATO and their allies. To please its masters, Kiev is now fomenting war with renewed power, preparing to launch a full-scale attack on the Donbass. And this bloody madness is happening with the consent and complicity of the US, EU and NATO.

The Trade Union Federation of the Lugansk People's Republic calls on the Kiev authorities and their protectors to stop the murderous plans and bloody madness! We are ready to defend our families, our homes, our land.

We are for the Minsk agreements!

We appeal to all international organizations, trade unions, social movements and our comrades. Think and stop those who want to kill! Stop the war! It is within our common power!

Save the people of Donbass from the Ukrainian army.

 

[emanymton]

View attachment 314703

They'll be announcing in the Ukrainian speakers momentarily - I mean, they will, won't they?

I'm meant to be having a bite to eat with a mate of mine who is on the STWC steering committee tonight. I'm sure we can have an interesting conversation.

 

[Wilf]

View attachment 314703

They'll be announcing in the Ukrainian speakers momentarily - I mean, they will, won't they?

Don't think I'm physically fit enough to attend this. The moral contortions and logical backflips would give me brain twist.

 

[Wilf]

Not one


From the blurb...

"There will be discussion of Ukraine's history, NATO's record, the question of self-determination, the threat of nuclear war, attacks on Russian culture and the issue of refugees."

"...attacks on Russian culture..." but nothing on the actual Russian attack. They're such absolute fucks.

Yep, not some bit of the left that's gone wrong, some wayward strand or heart in the right place but out-on-a-limb big tent comrades. Actual Fucking Enemy.

 

[Wilf]

I'm meant to be having a bite to eat with a mate of mine who is on the STWC steering committee tonight. I'm sure we can have an interesting conversation.

Stay well back, they tend to eat with their arses and spew out shit.

Err... sorry - EXITS ANGRY MODE - don't let me spoil your tea.

 

[hitmouse]

Online talk on Thursday:

Global Solidarity: Against the states and the militarization of the planet // Thursday 17th March

solidarityagainstinvasion.noblogs.org

8pm in Greece and Ukraine, 7pm in Germany, 6pm UK time.

This is due to start now:

 

[redsquirrel]

When did urban get taken over by green party Lib dem type cunts for whom the mere mention of class is dogmatic student politics?

Didn't you know Spiney that ideology is bad!

All those dogmatic socialists with their ideological strainght jackets not like these pragmatic liberals. No ideology there. just pragmatism.
(Good to see you by the way - posting this here as there is at least some sense on this thread)

This is just silly, of course I am referring to the various governments, when using the terms "the Ukrainians" and "we", to think otherwise would be a bit bonkers.

What do you mean 'dismissing stuff'? I have only described your suggestion that I was 'conflating people and the governments' as bonkers, because I used the terms "the Ukrainians" and "we" in a post about the request for, and supply of weapons, in that context is was clear I was referring to governments, being the only parties involved.

Why do they have to be organised (at least formally)? Why does it need to be a general strike? Class struggle isn't the glorious proletariat overthrowing the capitalist pigdogs or nothing.

When the material depravation really starts to hit who will be hit worst? What impact do you think that will have?

I don't know what the bit about ordinary Ukrainians fighting comes from - I fully support that (not that my support means much) and believe Ukrainian resistance is vital to intensifying tensions within Russia.

Exactly. Pathetic that 'socialists' are specifically arguing that class be thrown out the window.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Didn't you know Spiney that ideology is bad!

All those dogmatic socialists with their ideological strainght jackets not like these pragmatic liberals. No ideology there. just pragmatism.
(Good to see you by the way - posting this here as there is at least some sense on this thread)






Exactly. Pathetic that 'socialists' are specifically arguing that class be thrown out the window.

They're just being grown up and sensible. It's what the EU and NATO are saying so it's just common sense really

 

[andysays]

Didn't you know Spiney that ideology is bad!

All those dogmatic socialists with their ideological strainght jackets not like these pragmatic liberals. No ideology there. just pragmatism.
(Good to see you by the way - posting this here as there is at least some sense on this thread)

Exactly. Pathetic that 'socialists' are specifically arguing that class be thrown out the window.

I agree with your point here, and I too am sick and tired of the way the discussion on that thread has gone.

But TBH the poster you've quoted there and some of the others taking similar positions have never, to my knowledge, claimed to be socialists.

 

[redsquirrel]

I agree with your point here, and I too am sick and tired of the way the discussion on that thread has gone.

But TBH the poster you've quoted there and some of the others taking similar positions have never, to my knowledge, claimed to be socialists.

No you are right about the poster quoted, but there is at least one that that arguing a nationalist position that has. And certainly most would consider themselves left, at least as far it meant Anti-Tory.

 

[andysays]

No you are right about the poster quoted, but there is at least one that that arguing a nationalist position that has. And certainly most would consider themselves left, at least as far it meant Anti-Tory.

And yet their approach to the Ukraine situation appears to be basically indistinguishable from the Tory government position.

I don't really have the energy to engage with that directly ATM (post Covid fatigue).

 

[Lurdan]

I posted a link to an article by one of the Angry Workers about their internal discussion of the war in Ukraine

The war and "the left" - what do "we" do?

No. Just that sometimes wars are waged with genocidal intent, or potentially so. if you are being attacked it's maybe too late for such a mobilisation and analysis can wait till later. At least that's how those in the firing line may well see it. Do you think this is a war of genocidal intent?

www.urban75.net

They've just posted a response to it by Bob Myers, who was involved with the Workers Aid to Bosnia convoys in the 1990s.

‘No war but the class war’. Not a very useful slogan - Angry Workers

All the way through our efforts we were attacked by nearly all the so-called left wing organisations. The worst were the ones who, like many in Stop the War today, simply started with their hatred of the US and NATO, and therefore in one way or another supported Serbia’s fascistic attacks because they seemed to be opposed by NATO. This ignored the fact that the UN and NATO’s plan for the division of Bosnia mirrored the ethnic cleansers.

The “next worst” of the left were the “no war but the class war” people, who thought they were performing their working class duties by publishing endless articles demanding that the Yugoslav workers reject nationalism and fight for unity. How? where? All of them ignored the unity that did exist in the free Tuzla territory, because all these lefts could see was the Bosnian flag that flew over the town. They didn’t feel the need to get close to the Bosnian working class because they saw it only as an adjunct of Bosnian nationalism and therefore something only to be lectured at.

Like that first Angry Workers article I found it very interesting, in the sense that it gave me some food for thought.

 

[Serge Forward]

The following is an ACG interview with the comrades of the Confederation of Revolutionary Anarcho-Syndicalists (CRAS), the Russian section of the anarcho-syndicalist International Workers’ Association. We wanted to ask them about their organisation, the situation in Russia, and their response to the current war in Ukraine.

Interview with CRAS, Russian Anarcho-syndicalists - Anarchist Communist Group

 

[zahir]

I'm not sure if this has been posted yet.

Ukrainian Anarchists Mobilize for Armed Defense, Draw Solidarity from Abroad as Russia Invades

The international reaction of anarchist movements to Russia’s current war in Ukraine has overwhelmingly been one of solidarity with the Ukrainian people and resistance towards Vladimir Putin’s irridentism. However, there has been some variation therein, with almost no support for Russian...

www.militantwire.com

In Ukraine itself, there seems to be unanimous support for the war effort among local anarchists, though there has been some initial disagreement over questions of command structure and larger loyalties. The anarchist military effort on the ground has been organized under the banner of the Resistance Committee, who themselves are under the command and control of Ukraine’s Territorial Defense Forces.

This appears to disagree with the CRAS interview above:

CRAS: We were in constant contact with Ukrainian anarchists before this war, and we continue to maintain information exchange with some of them even now. Unfortunately, the Ukrainian anarchist movement is strongly split into various groups and currents. Many of them now actually supported the Ukrainian state and even joined military formations. We denounce this practice as a departure from anarchism and internationalism. Others take a more internationalist stance, opposing both states and now working primarily in the field of humanitarian assistance to populations suffering from war.

 

[hitmouse]

Yeah, I have seen one more critical commentary from a Ukrainian anarchist, but I think that is very much a minority position within the movement. I also dunno how much influence CRAS has within the Russian movement compared to Avtonom or Anarchist Militant, but I suppose these are all fairly tiny groups operating under extreme repression.

One thing about that article that I would seriously question, though, is:
Furthermore, anarchists are also inherently against the wars of states and their elites as they distract from the greater struggle—so to say that any anarchist is “for” the present conflict in Ukraine would be inaccurate, even though both anarchists and antifascists have found various opportunity or justification for fighting on either side.

I know that self-described antifascists fought on both sides in the earlier 2014-era conflict, but I thought they were mostly non-anarchist antifascists then, and I certainly have not seen any anarchist at all offer a justification for fighting on the Russian side this time, I don't think the article mentions anyone doing that either.