The Trump presidency

[8den]

If you ask him to prove his assertion he'll refer to the Podesta emails and imply that Russia could have hacked something somewhere. Straight out of the conspiraloon book of arguing.

The major take away from the Podesta e-mails is they were so lacking in scandal conspiracy theorists were reduced to claiming that every time anyone said pizza they "meant" child abuse

 

[Yossarian]

How is winning by 3 million votes a spectacular failure? Trump won by cunt hair in a rigged election.

In the middle of October, polls suggested a landslide win Clinton's team were talking about "expanding the Democratic map" and spending money on ads in Georgia, Arizona, and even Utah.

Instead, with about 100 scandals going on and not a whole lot of fundraising, Trump took the swing states he concentrated on, at least one of which Clinton didn't even visit, and made himself look like a political genius, while Clinton gets to go down in history as the candidate who lost to Donald Trump.

That counts as a spectacular, enormous, humiliating loss for Clinton and the Democrats, and it's one they shouldn't forget about just because Trump's presidency is a shambles.

 

[maomao]

You want me to explain to you how Russian hackers influenced this election?

Christ I knew you were ill informed but...

Influenced or 'rigged'? They're different words they mean different things.

 

[maomao]

The major take away from the Podesta e-mails is they were so lacking in scandal conspiracy theorists were reduced to claiming that every time anyone said pizza they "meant" child abuse

Except for the 'standard' grubby stuff like paying for Chelsea's wedding out of the charity foundation etc. I think the real lesson was everyone knows the Clintons are so venal and corrupt that they'd have to be raping children before anyone could consider it news.

 

[8den]

In the middle of October, polls suggested a landslide win Clinton's team were talking about "expanding the Democratic map" and spending money on ads in Georgia, Arizona, and even Utah.

Instead, with about 100 scandals going on and not a whole lot of fundraising, Trump took the swing states he concentrated on, at least one of which Clinton didn't even visit, and made himself look like a political genius, while Clinton gets to go down in history as the candidate who lost to Donald Trump.

That counts as a spectacular, enormous, humiliating loss for Clinton and the Democrats, and it's one they shouldn't forget about just because Trump's presidency is a shambles.

If you want to talk about Clinton mismanagement fine. You could have even made the argument that Sander V Trump is an election Putin might have been more indifferent about (Personally I don't think Putin wanted Trump to win Clinton to lose) You're also ignoring the extraordinary role Comey played, despite having an active investigation into Trump Russia ties, making his announcement about Weiner's laptop, that killed her campaign.

My point is saying "Sanders could/would have won" ignores the enormous influence Russia had on the election. It ignores voter suppression in democratic states which again would have hurt both, and it ignores the redistricting and gerrymandering that would have hurt Sanders too.

The point is, A candidate won more votes than her rival and still lost, in that context it's particularly pointless claiming that your candidate would have done better in what clearly was a rigged contest.

 

[8den]

Influenced or 'rigged'? They're different words they mean different things.

Oh lord he's getting pedantic, the spit and drool will be next.

 

[J Ed]

Oh lord he's getting pedantic, the spit and drool will be next.

A very rude form of argumentation from someone who is so lacking in anything interesting or insightful to say. If you are going to become upset about someone asking you to be more precise in your language, stop writing in such an imprecise way.

 

[8den]

Except for the 'standard' grubby stuff like paying for Chelsea's wedding out of the charity foundation etc. I think the real lesson was everyone knows the Clintons are so venal and corrupt that they'd have to be raping children before anyone could consider it news.

Except that specific example didn't happen you gullible fucking moron.

Did the Clinton Foundation pay for Chelsea’s wedding?

Why don't you get a semi automatic weapon and head on down to Comet pizza next.

 

[maomao]

Oh lord he's getting pedantic, the spit and drool will be next.

It's not pedantry. You are using the exact conspiraloon style argument I just predicted you would. There was probably some Russian involvement in the Podesta hack. You are using the word rigged to imply that Russian hackers hacked the vote itself.

You're a loony.

 

[8den]

A very rude form of argumentation from someone who is so lacking in anything interesting or insightful to say.

I'm still at Yossarian claiming that winning the popular vote by 3 million counts as a 'spectacular" failure. I see United lost 3-0 to Sunderland at the weekend. Spectacular!

 

[J Ed]

Except that specific example didn't happen you gullible fucking moron.

Did the Clinton Foundation pay for Chelsea’s wedding?

Why don't you get a semi automatic weapon and head on down to Comet pizza next.

Did you even read that article? That's an incredibly paper thin refutation of a very specific allegation made in private by someone who would have had to account for it.

 

[8den]

It's not pedantry. You are using the exact conspiraloon style argument I just predicted you would. There was probably some Russian involvement in the Podesta hack. You are using the word rigged to imply that Russian hackers hacked the vote itself.

You're a loony.

Probably? Roger Stone literally predicted Gufficer a GRU agent would hack Podesta's e-mails.

I was using the words Rigged in several instances, I consider, Gerrymandering and Voter ID laws also Rigging. I said the election was rigged. I said hackers influenced the election.

 

[J Ed]

I'm still at Yossarian claiming that winning the popular vote by 3 million counts as a 'spectacular" failure. I see United lost 3-0 to Sunderland at the weekend. Spectacular!

Of course it was a spectacular failure, the US president is not elected by popular vote and that is something that the Clinton campaign were aware of as much as anyone else. Despite having double his money and almost the entire media on her side, she lost to her election to an orange gameshow rapist which despite being an awful candidate she never should have lost due to some very basic errors which would not have been made by semi-competent local politicians. Anyone who spends just a small amount of time looking at the mechanics of the campaign can see that.

How Clinton lost Michigan — and blew the election

 

[8den]

Did you even read that article? That's an incredibly paper thin refutation of a very specific allegation made in private by someone who would have had to account for it.

It's also a paper thin allegation with nothing but an offhand remark in a email between Band and another person, to substantiate it.

Aside from Band's remark is there any other evidence that the Clinton foundation paid for Chelsea's wedding?

 

[8den]

Of course it was a spectacular failure, the US president is not elected by popular vote and that is something that the Clinton campaign were aware of as much as anyone else. Despite having double his money and almost the entire media on her side, she lost to her election to an orange gameshow rapist which despite being an awful candidate she never should have lost due to some very basic errors which would not have been made by semi-competent local politicians. Anyone who spends just a small amount of time looking at the mechanics of the campaign can see that.

How Clinton lost Michigan — and blew the election

An Orange gameshow rapist, who had Russian and republican backing.

This is the third time I'm mentioning redistricting and voter ID laws. Those crippled Clinton's campaign and would have crippled Sanders again.

But hey the three of you are fixated on non existant Clinton scandals and re running the democratic primary in your heads.

 

[J Ed]

An Orange gameshow rapist, who had Russian and republican backing.

This is the third time I'm mentioning redistricting and voter ID laws. Those crippled Clinton's campaign and would have crippled Sanders again.

But hey the three of you are fixated on non existant Clinton scandals and re running the democratic primary in your heads.

Did Putin tell Clinton not to campaign in the states which she, like Obama, needed to campaign in in order to win?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Of course it was a spectacular failure, the US president is not elected by popular vote

Winning[or the failure to win] the popular vote meant something to Trump: he made up lies about it, then whined like a baby about it, for weeks.

 

[maomao]

Probably? Roger Stone literally predicted Gufficer a GRU agent would hack Podesta's e-mails.

I was using the words Rigged in several instances, I consider, Gerrymandering and Voter ID laws also Rigging. I said the election was rigged. I said hackers influenced the election.

Rubbish. You used the word rigged repeatedly without explanation loony.

 

[Yossarian]

I'm still at Yossarian claiming that winning the popular vote by 3 million counts as a 'spectacular" failure. I see United lost 3-0 to Sunderland at the weekend. Spectacular!

Might be a better analogy if United had blown an 8-0 lead to lose to a team of clowns and circus bears and then retired from football permanently.

 

[J Ed]

The Sanders camp begged the Clinton campaign to let them save it from itself and not make these easily avoidable fatal mistakes.

Team Bernie: Hillary ‘F*cking Ignored’ Us in Swing States

In the final months of the brutal and chaotic 2016 campaign, there were plenty of Democratic activists freaking out about Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania (the three states that ultimately cost the Democrats the White House) and Clinton’s fatal shortcomings there. Many of them were envoys of the Sanders camp who wanted to help fix those problems, including Clinton’s difficulties with the block of the mythical “white-working-class,” economically anxious voters who Sanders had championed during the primaries.

“They fucking ignored us on all these [three] battleground states [while] we were sounding the alarm for months,” Nomiki Konst, a progressive activist and former Sanders surrogate who served on the 2016 Democratic National Committee platform committee, told The Daily Beast. “We kept saying to each other like, ‘What the fuck, why are they just blowing us off? They need these voters more than anybody.’”

According to Konst and multiple other people involved with these discussions, the Clinton campaign agreed to a meeting with a cadre of Sanders surrogates during the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in July. The purpose of the meeting, which included Clinton’s national political director Amanda Rentería and Team Hillary’s progressive outreach coordinator (and former Sanders senior aide) Nick Carter, was to address the concerns many Sanders camp alums were voicing about Clinton’s strategy going into the general election against Trump. Carter declined to comment on this story.

“Once we were at the convention, Bernie people were on the ground—we could feel it, people were pissed off, there with their pitchforks ready to fight,” Konst recalled. “But before the convention, after the platform committee meeting that I was on, Bernie surrogates were talking constantly, saying, ‘Oh my god, Hillary is going to lose if she doesn’t address TPP and [free] trade and [all these] other issues. We were looking at the polling and thought that if these people stay home, she’ll lose.”

When their meeting finally happened during the Democratic convention, the progressive activists’ fears were only inflamed.


“We were saying we are offering our help—nobody wanted [President] Donald Trump,” Konst continued, noting that the “Bernie world” side was offering Clinton’s team their plans—strategy memos, lists of hardened state organizers, timelines, data, the works—to win over certain voters in areas she ultimately lost but where Sanders had won during the primary.

“We were painting them a dire picture, and I couldn’t help but think they literally looked like they had no idea what was going on here,” she continued. “I remember their faces, it was like they had never fucking heard this stuff before. It’s what we had been screaming for the past 9 months… It’s like [they] forgot the basics of Politics 101.”

As the days and weeks flew by, the Bernie delegation kept underscoring TPP, jobs, union allies, the youth vote, and the environment, and pitched multiple rallies with Sanders in states such as Pennsylvania and Michigan (a state where Sanders unexpectedly beat Clinton in the Democratic primary, and a state that Clinton actively neglected during the general).

“The math that they lost on, is the math we won on,” Konst said. “So we wrote out a plan, and sent it to them, telling them to stop thinking you’re going to get this ‘Obama coalition,’ it’s not going to happen.”

Assurances were then made with various Clinton senior staffers that they would follow through with subsequent meetings and phone calls to address these gaps and warnings. Instead, meetings were canceled and “rescheduled” into oblivion.

“We not only screamed about this, we wrote memos, we begged,” Jane Kleeb, Nebraska Democratic Party chair and another Sanders booster who was at the DNC meeting, said. “I spent a good chunk of time writing memos about how [Bernie’s surrogates] could be utilized on the campaign trail, about ‘issue voters,’ about the environment, Black Lives Matter, Dakota Access Pipeline, rogue cops, you name it… I was [also] talking specifically about rural communities, and how [Hillary] completely ignored and abandoned anything that we cared about.”

 

[J Ed]

Might be a better analogy if United had blown an 8-0 lead to lose to a team of clowns and circus bears and then retired from football permanently.

Yes and then after doing so continued to claim that they had done nothing wrong.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

An Orange gameshow rapist, who had Russian and republican backing.

This is the third time I'm mentioning redistricting and voter ID laws. Those crippled Clinton's campaign and would have crippled Sanders again.

But hey the three of you are fixated on non existant Clinton scandals and re running the democratic primary in your heads.

Redistricting and voter ID laws were factors in this election. The Congress, the Senate, the FBI etc, are conducting investigations into what may well turn out to be the biggest scandal in US political history. Trump's campaign manager, and his National Security Advisor lost their jobs because of a Russian connection[plus the fabric of lies they spun].

I wouldn't get too upset if a small handful of posters to a British bulletin board subscribe to a wacko interpretation of reality that in essence, ignores all these things.

 

[8den]

Might be a better analogy if United had blown an 8-0 lead to lose to a team of clowns and circus bears and then retired from football permanently.

I don't think so.

Furthermore this obsession that this n election was lost by Clinton is a really fucking stupid take away. Millions of people had their votes denied by corrupt voter ID laws, and gerrymandering.

If you don't fancy having this exact same conversation in four years that's the outrageous part of the last election, not John Podesta's e-mails, and mao-mao and JEd continuation with this non-existant issue is really fucking stupid, considering the thread title.

 

[8den]

I wouldn't get too upset if a small handful of posters to a British bulletin board subscribe to a wacko interpretation of reality that in essence, ignores all these things.

Honestly if this election (and the last few posts) have given us one takeaway is that gullible people will buy whatever bullshit they want to believe on the internet. And that is actually is a big problem right now.

Look at mao-mao and JEd this Clinton wedding thing is a non story, based on a off hand remark in a e-mail, and instead of asking for more proof of the alleged fraudulent activity they're demanding a better refutation.

 

[J Ed]

I don't think so.

Furthermore this obsession that this n election was lost by Clinton is a really fucking stupid take away. Millions of people had their votes denied by corrupt voter ID laws, and gerrymandering.

If you don't fancy having this exact same conversation in four years that's the outrageous part of the last election, not John Podesta's e-mails, and mao-mao and JEd continuation with this non-existant issue is really fucking stupid, considering the thread title.

I have posted on this thread about gerrymandering both before and after the election, the Clinton campaign or any other Democratic campaign could have won despite it by following the advice given to it by the Sanders campaign or by listening to what trade union campaigners on the ground were telling them for months. They were too ignorant and arrogant to do it.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't see how redistricting affected the presidential election result - the only states that split their electoral votes by district are Nebraska and Maine, the rest are winner-take-all. Voter ID laws and other suppression were more of an issue, it's a shame Clinton hasn't had more to say about it in the months after the election.

Russia, WikiLeaks, etc. also played a role, we might even someday find out how big of a role, but it seems like after just a few months, the Democrats are losing sight of the fact that another big reason Hillary Clinton was a loser was that millions of people in battleground states who might once have voted Democrat decided to vote for Donald Trump instead of her, while millions of others stayed home.

 

[8den]

I don't see how redistricting affected the presidential election result - the only states that split their electoral votes by district are Nebraska and Maine, the rest are winner-take-all. Voter ID laws and other suppression were more of an issue,

redistricting leads gerrymandering giving republican majorities in statehouses letting them bring in punitive voter ID laws.

it's a shame Clinton hasn't had more to say about it in the months after the election.

Oh my god, you're finding a way of blaming Clinton for not doing enough to stop republican voter suppression.

 

[8den]

I have posted on this thread about gerrymandering both before and after the election, the Clinton campaign or any other Democratic campaign could have won despite it by following the advice given to it by the Sanders campaign or by listening to what trade union campaigners on the ground were telling them for months. They were too ignorant and arrogant to do it.

Christ you're wasted on Urban, clearly your calling is running a national presidential campaign in the states. Don't stop to pack! Go! Follow in the steps of Louise Mench.

 

[maomao]

Clinton wasn't arsed about Voter ID laws for the same reason the Labour party will never call for proportional representation. She's very safely part of the establishment and any increase in democracy increases the risk that people will vote for something other than Republicans or Democrats.

 

[maomao]

Oh my god, you're finding a way of blaming Clinton for not doing enough to stop republican voter suppression.

So what did she do?