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The stupidity of the anti-vaxx nutcases

An interesting article from Spiegel showing an unexpectedly strong correlation between high rates of coronavirus and support for far-right AfD in Germany:

The researchers say the assumption that border traffic to the neighboring Czech Republic was a major driver of the pandemic, a belief that is widely held in Saxony, has been refuted, because the study shows that infection rates in some districts remained low despite close contact with the neighboring countries – on the border with Luxembourg and the Netherlands, for example. Also, the cases of infection in Thuringia can’t be explained by people crossing the border given the state's location in the center of Germany.

...

But it is clear that the right-wing campaign against some purported "corona dictatorship" hasn’t done anything to increase the willingness of some people in Germany to get vaccinated. A survey by pollster Forsa showed that a full 50 percent of unvaccinated voters cast their ballots in September’s national election for the AfD. Nevertheless, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the party has contributed significantly to the rejection of protective measures and vaccines. It’s possible that the party simply benefits from skepticism toward the state and society that has been deeply rooted in some regions for years. Jena-based sociologist Richter notes that the study’s data also shows that "corona protection measures are particularly strongly rejected in places where the proportion of voters for far-right parties, as well as the proportion of non-voters, was already particularly high in 2005."

It's paired with yet another harrowing account of doctors and nurses running themselves ragged to try and save people in a Leipzig ICU, many of whom chose to not be vaccinated.

Bed number 51 in room B1126: a 54-year-old male patient. He spent two weeks in an artificial coma, was regularly rotated from the ventral position to his side to his back. Until just two days ago, oxygen was continuously pumped into his lungs through a tube from a ventilator, an Evita V600. He was on dialysis until yesterday. Today, though, the man can speak. A nurse says that he has just claimed that the virus is an American invention and that vaccination is pointless.
 
Sorry for the long C&P. This is from the Guardian, and states the case much more eloquently than I could.

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin​

Anonymous


Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had their jab
A doctor's hands holding a stethoscope

‘Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated in our hospitals.’ Photograph: Murdo MacLeod/The Guardian
Sun 21 Nov 2021 09.16 GMT



In hospital, Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated. The man in his 20s who had always watched what he ate, worked out in the gym, was too healthy to ever catch Covid badly. The 48-year-old who never got round to making the appointment.
The person in their 50s whose friend had side-effects. The woman who wanted to wait for more evidence. The young pregnant lady worried about the effect on her baby.

The 60-year-old, brought to hospital with oxygen saturations of 70% by the ambulance that he initially called for his partner, who had died by the time it arrived; both believed that the drug companies bribed the government to get the vaccine approved.
All severely ill with Covid. All unvaccinated and previously healthy. All completely avoidable.
Of course, there are people who have their vaccinations but still get sick. These people may be elderly or frail, or have underlying health problems. Those with illnesses affecting the immune system, particularly patients who have had chemotherapy for blood cancers, are especially vulnerable. Some unlucky healthy people will also end up on our general wards with Covid after being vaccinated, usually needing a modest amount of oxygen for a few days.
But the story is different on our intensive care unit. Here, the patient population consists of a few vulnerable people with severe underlying health problems and a majority of fit, healthy, younger people unvaccinated by choice. Watching the mix of patients coming in with Covid, it feels to me like hardly anybody has been vaccinated nowadays; of course, this is because the people that have been vaccinated are getting on with their lives at home. If everyone got vaccinated, hospitals would be under much less pressure; this is beyond debate. Your wait for your clinic appointment/operation/diagnostic test/A&E department would be shorter. Your ambulance would arrive sooner. Reports of the pressure on the NHS are not exaggerated, I promise you.
Furthermore, we have recently rolled out a new medication for patients without antibodies against Covid. It costs about £2,000 a treatment and is subject to a rigorous and time-consuming approval process for every case we treat. Guess which patients don’t have these antibodies (spoiler: it’s not the ones who have been vaccinated).

Most of the resources that we are devoting to Covid in hospital are now being spent on the unvaccinated.
Yes, vaccinations are unpleasant. They cause side-effects. They hurt. You may even still catch Covid afterwards. I have many colleagues who have felt awful after vaccination and a few who had to take a day or two off work. However, I have not heard of any who have been hospitalised with Covid afterwards or who have had severe side-effects. The approvals process was incredibly stringent and we now have an unbelievable amount of real-world data that these vaccines work. The science that has been applied here is nothing short of awe-inspiring to me. However, I realise that none of these rational arguments would change the mind of someone who is resolved against having it, although I suppose it may push someone who remains undecided.

As a respiratory doctor, I have spent my whole career treating people whose lung diseases have been caused by smoking, including long after they knew the risks. I have spent countless hours with people who blame themselves for ruining their health; I have thought a lot about our personal responsibility for our health and to what degree we should be held accountable for our choices. I personally – unlike some of my colleagues – have never felt any ambivalence about treating smokers without judgment in exactly the same way as people with diseases that are not seen as self-inflicted.

Enshrined in the way we protect patients’ autonomy is the recognition that others may reasonably make decisions we may see as irrational or wrong. We are all products of our upbringing, education and opportunities, and I have been hugely fortunate that in my case these have led me to make decisions I value. Who is to say I wouldn’t have made different choices in someone else’s shoes.

Translating this to the choice not to take the vaccine, however, I find my patience wearing thin. I think this is for a number of reasons. Even if you are not worried about your own risk from Covid, you cannot know the risk of the people into whose faces you may cough; there is a dangerous and selfish element to this that I find hard to stomach.

Some of my frustration is directed upwards, at the flagrant misinformation flourishing in certain places and the utterly woeful example that our leaders continue to set. I have never heard a reason not to take the vaccine that I have agreed with. Most of all, however, I am now beaten back, exhausted, worn down by the continuous stream of people that we battle to treat when they have consciously passed up the opportunity to save themselves. It does make me angry.

Despite this, I find the idea of NHS and care staff being forced to be vaccinated very difficult. I know that it is the right outcome, but I dislike the means of bringing it about. It is incredible to me that there is so much anxiety and falsehood around that this could possibly be necessary after the year we have all witnessed. How strong is the hold that this information has on people that it outweighs rational thought?
Maybe it’s just that others have not seen what I have recently, or do not believe it, but even now we have nurses on our Covid ward who have not been vaccinated. I just hope that we don’t end up losing yet more staff.

Fundamentally though, for me, it comes down to this. I can’t think of a single case offhand of a person who was previously fit and healthy who has ended up needing intensive care after being fully vaccinated. It may not stop you from catching Covid. But it can save your life when you do.
  • The writer is an NHS respiratory consultant who works across a number of hospitals
 
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Someone posted a video on another thread of an American chat show host talking about vaccines, I liked the bit when he said, 'if you think you know better than almost every doctor in the world, you'll never have to consult another doctor in your life, for anything. Split your head open? No need to attend hospital, just get the sewing kit out.' :D

EDIT - It was actually on this thread, last page.
 
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Sorry for the long C&P. This is from the Guardian, and states the case much more eloquently than I could.

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin​

Anonymous


Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had their jab
A doctor's hands holding a stethoscope's hands holding a stethoscope

‘Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated in our hospitals.’ Photograph: Murdo MacLeod/The Guardian
Sun 21 Nov 2021 09.16 GMT



In hospital, Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated. The man in his 20s who had always watched what he ate, worked out in the gym, was too healthy to ever catch Covid badly. The 48-year-old who never got round to making the appointment.
The person in their 50s whose friend had side-effects. The woman who wanted to wait for more evidence. The young pregnant lady worried about the effect on her baby.

The 60-year-old, brought to hospital with oxygen saturations of 70% by the ambulance that he initially called for his partner, who had died by the time it arrived; both believed that the drug companies bribed the government to get the vaccine approved.
All severely ill with Covid. All unvaccinated and previously healthy. All completely avoidable.
Of course, there are people who have their vaccinations but still get sick. These people may be elderly or frail, or have underlying health problems. Those with illnesses affecting the immune system, particularly patients who have had chemotherapy for blood cancers, are especially vulnerable. Some unlucky healthy people will also end up on our general wards with Covid after being vaccinated, usually needing a modest amount of oxygen for a few days.
But the story is different on our intensive care unit. Here, the patient population consists of a few vulnerable people with severe underlying health problems and a majority of fit, healthy, younger people unvaccinated by choice. Watching the mix of patients coming in with Covid, it feels to me like hardly anybody has been vaccinated nowadays; of course, this is because the people that have been vaccinated are getting on with their lives at home. If everyone got vaccinated, hospitals would be under much less pressure; this is beyond debate. Your wait for your clinic appointment/operation/diagnostic test/A&E department would be shorter. Your ambulance would arrive sooner. Reports of the pressure on the NHS are not exaggerated, I promise you.
Furthermore, we have recently rolled out a new medication for patients without antibodies against Covid. It costs about £2,000 a treatment and is subject to a rigorous and time-consuming approval process for every case we treat. Guess which patients don’t have these antibodies (spoiler: it’s not the ones who have been vaccinated).

Most of the resources that we are devoting to Covid in hospital are now being spent on the unvaccinated.
Yes, vaccinations are unpleasant. They cause side-effects. They hurt. You may even still catch Covid afterwards. I have many colleagues who have felt awful after vaccination and a few who had to take a day or two off work. However, I have not heard of any who have been hospitalised with Covid afterwards or who have had severe side-effects. The approvals process was incredibly stringent and we now have an unbelievable amount of real-world data that these vaccines work. The science that has been applied here is nothing short of awe-inspiring to me. However, I realise that none of these rational arguments would change the mind of someone who is resolved against having it, although I suppose it may push someone who remains undecided.
As a respiratory doctor, I have spent my whole career treating people whose lung diseases have been caused by smoking, including long after they knew the risks. I have spent countless hours with people who blame themselves for ruining their health; I have thought a lot about our personal responsibility for our health and to what degree we should be held accountable for our choices. I personally – unlike some of my colleagues – have never felt any ambivalence about treating smokers without judgment in exactly the same way as people with diseases that are not seen as self-inflicted.
Enshrined in the way we protect patients’ autonomy is the recognition that others may reasonably make decisions we may see as irrational or wrong. We are all products of our upbringing, education and opportunities, and I have been hugely fortunate that in my case these have led me to make decisions I value. Who is to say I wouldn’t have made different choices in someone else’s shoes.
Translating this to the choice not to take the vaccine, however, I find my patience wearing thin. I think this is for a number of reasons. Even if you are not worried about your own risk from Covid, you cannot know the risk of the people into whose faces you may cough; there is a dangerous and selfish element to this that I find hard to stomach.

Some of my frustration is directed upwards, at the flagrant misinformation flourishing in certain places and the utterly woeful example that our leaders continue to set. I have never heard a reason not to take the vaccine that I have agreed with. Most of all, however, I am now beaten back, exhausted, worn down by the continuous stream of people that we battle to treat when they have consciously passed up the opportunity to save themselves. It does make me angry.

Despite this, I find the idea of NHS and care staff being forced to be vaccinated very difficult. I know that it is the right outcome, but I dislike the means of bringing it about. It is incredible to me that there is so much anxiety and falsehood around that this could possibly be necessary after the year we have all witnessed. How strong is the hold that this information has on people that it outweighs rational thought?
Maybe it’s just that others have not seen what I have recently, or do not believe it, but even now we have nurses on our Covid ward who have not been vaccinated. I just hope that we don’t end up losing yet more staff.
Fundamentally though, for me, it comes down to this. I can’t think of a single case offhand of a person who was previously fit and healthy who has ended up needing intensive care after being fully vaccinated. It may not stop you from catching Covid. But it can save your life when you do.
  • The writer is an NHS respiratory consultant who works across a number of hospitals

I read that this morning, it's sad and depressing. In other countries they have proposed charging people who are unvaccinated by choice for the cost of their treatment.
 
Maybe for the benefit of the vaccine refuseniks, they could set up hospice tents in a secluded corner of the hospital grounds, where they can safely hack out their lungs as far away from all that nasty evil modern medicine as possible.

I'm sure if we trawl the local historical re-enactment societies, we can find someone who knows a thing or two about cupping and blood-letting, treatment modalities that were in common use before Big Pharma ruined all of our lives by stopping us from dying so soon. They might even get lucky and find someone who can do trepanning.
 
Although surely there is a difference between someone addicted to nicotine and someone who is ideologically an anti vaxer, no? The former isn't smoking out of principle, while the latter refuses vaccination out of some fucked up principle. Shouldn't anti vsxxers stick to their principles when they get ill with covid?
They should, but that particular road of value judgement is one that tends to end up, as many roads tend to, bringing you to that place known as "Useless Eater". Which is fine, all the time it isn't you, but has an an uncanny tendency to expand into all kinds of judgements about people's lifestyles, sexuality, gender, and sometimes even political views.
 
Unlike CoVID you can't infect other people with being fat. The thing with antivaxxers is no matter what their reasons, they have made a conscious decision to increase the risk to the rest of the community out of what is basically selfishness.

The rest of the unvaxxed community maybe. As the article above says, "Covid-19 has largely become a disease of the unvaccinated in our hospitals."
 
They should, but that particular road of value judgement is one that tends to end up, as many roads tend to, bringing you to that place known as "Useless Eater". Which is fine, all the time it isn't you, but has an an uncanny tendency to expand into all kinds of judgements about people's lifestyles, sexuality, gender, and sometimes even political views.
Surely someone who doesn't believe in science or medicine wouldn't go to the doctor / hospital anyway. So no moral dilemma for the medics. :)
 
Unlike CoVID you can't infect other people with being fat. The thing with antivaxxers is no matter what their reasons, they have made a conscious decision to increase the risk to the rest of the community out of what is basically selfishness.

Oh, and being overweight increases your risk of getting Covid
 
It's like they saw James Bond No Time to Die and thought it was a documentary
 
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Increases risk of bad outcome not catching it.

A fundamental tenet of the NHS is to treat everyone. Shame to think people see this as a bad thing.

I agree completely. I'm just highlighting the way in which this line of thinking can be extended to include all sorts of people. Which is a gift to those wanting to push privatisation. We really need to be careful here.
 
If everyone believed in science and taking care of their health
Perhaps people should be given a questionnaire when they get into hospital to give more freedom of choice. Would you like to be treated with:

1) modern medicine
2) homeopathy
3) ivermectin
You can believe in modern medicine and drink yourself to death because being fallible shouldn't exclude you of your rights
 
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