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The state's new found concern for Mental Health ("stiff upper lip")

It is good that there's attention to people's experiences when they're young - only in retrospect can I see how fucked up the routine of childhood was when I was younger, how many kids I went to school with had clear and serious issues, and how it caused so many problems in later life for so many people. I'm all in favour of stopping that as early as possible. It's just that nothing useful is going to come from royals saying "ooh how awful" or other context-free pronouncements which are not going to address actual situations, just pretend that there's some epidemic that's come out of nowhere.

Real progress is made by young people being able to express themselves properly and their situation addressed by adults who actually care and are in a position to do anything. It's massively fucked up that it seems that it's only by their own efforts - being able to more publicly express what they're feeling - that said young people are getting any attention, because as someone who is having trouble you don't have a good perspective and there are so many pressures to shut your opinion down. But then that carries across over everyone regardless of age; at the point where you're least able to fight for yourself, you need to.
 
Sorry, I misspoke.

It is extremely frustrating, as an adult, trying to access support.

Do you think young people's services are better funded than that of adults? Do you think young people can get help more easily than you can?
 
"Nobody gets anything" is how it works nowadays. MH provision has effectively been privatised; if you need a therapist or a psych you get told to go private.
 
are we better off in wales? we have a counselling-by-stealth programme in primary that kid1's made use of in the past. she's having some problems atm and while she doesn't want to join the high school counselling programme, there is one.

and the best joined-up mental health provision i've had was while i was at uni (as a mature student) - free weekly counselling with ten days to first assessment, plus disability support to help with useless programme staff. there was nothing like it cos i asked when i was a student the first time around (mid-90s)
 
SUNDAY



Protest against the sanitising of psychiatry by the HeadsTogether campaign.


‘Heads Together’ has been made the 2017 Virgin Money London Marathon Charity of the Year.


The young Royals – Prince William, his wife and Prince Harry are heading the #HeadsTogether campaign and have been taking advice from psychiatrists and their allies and have not been introduced, as far as we know, to psychiatric survivors.

Charity of the Year

They probably haven’t been told about the psychiatry we know about – the forced incarceration, forced psychiatric drugging, forced electroshock, restraint and seclusion. Lives ruined by years of psychiatric abuse. Very few humane choices.

We call upon survivors, enlightened professionals and concerned others, come and share your stories with passers-by. Be prepared to educate irate psychiatric staff, compliant ‘service users’ and baffled members of the public! Above all, enjoy!

‘Heads Apart’ protest

Date: Sunday 23rd April 2017

Time: 2.00-5.00pm

Place: On the Hyde Park Corner roundabout – south east side by Constitution Hill crossing.

Nearest tube: Hyde Park Corner exit 2 – head towards New Zealand memorial (black girders coming out of the ground). We will be behind that on the grass near the crossing.
 
are we better off in wales? we have a counselling-by-stealth programme in primary that kid1's made use of in the past. she's having some problems atm and while she doesn't want to join the high school counselling programme, there is one.

There's a counselling in schools service in Wales that doesn't exist in England and I think people were trained specifically for that programme. There's now a statutory requirement for LAs in Wales to provide counselling to young people. I have no idea about the quality of the counselling, how they collaborate with CAMHS, to what extent it's done on the cheap, but it sounds great in theory.

I don't know about CAMHS and more specialist provision though. I do know there are very few child psychotherapists, there is no child psychotherapy training in Wales.
 
Sorry, I misspoke.

It is extremely frustrating, as an adult, trying to access support.

TBF, CAMHS are mostly even thinner on the ground. I recall existentialist making some very uncomplimentary observations about his own area, and round here they're shit - you basically have to be a juvenile suicide-attempter to get any help. Things were shit before "austerity", now they're beyond shit - there's just fuck-all there. :(
 
TBF, CAMHS are mostly even thinner on the ground. I recall existentialist making some very uncomplimentary observations about his own area, and round here they're shit - you basically have to be a juvenile suicide-attempter to get any help. Things were shit before "austerity", now they're beyond shit - there's just fuck-all there. :(
There's fuck all here too. I've been offered the poundland/CBT approach i mentioned above, but now over the phone. This is because my local surgery is open part time now (thanks Andy!) and can't offer a room locally. The alternative is to spend more money on exuberant bus fares which I'm not prepared to do. Phone psychology is a joke IMO.
 
TBF, CAMHS are mostly even thinner on the ground. I recall existentialist making some very uncomplimentary observations about his own area, and round here they're shit - you basically have to be a juvenile suicide-attempter to get any help. Things were shit before "austerity", now they're beyond shit - there's just fuck-all there. :(
I may have underestimated the paucity of care, then. It is not enough merely to be a "suicide-attempter" - you need to be making attempts that are sufficiently credible to convince CAMHS that you're "serious". I have had referrals turned back because the young person had not taken enough paracetamol to constitute what they thought was a sufficiently dangerous suicide attempt.

I can feel the bile rising just from writing that. In all the suicide intervention training I have received, and consequently in all the training I have given, it is made very clear that, regardless of how serious you might think the individual is, if they are making threats of suicide, or attempting suicide, you take that completely at face value. It is sickening to have a client who is clearly in great distress, and in need of serious help, but whom you know will only get knocked back if you make the referral you're professionally obliged to make, even when you know it will come to nothing...and even if the young person is taken on by CAMHS, it'll be for six-monthly psychiatric review and a once-a-month (if they're "lucky") session with a CPN, which most clients in the past have generally attended one or two of, then given up in dismay.

It's worse if they're deemed to be sufficiently at risk to warrant acute inpatient care. The nearest child and adolescent acute inpatient unit is in Bridgend, nearly 2 hours' drive away, and that is usually operating at 100+% capacity. I don't know if it still goes on, but in the time that I have been practising, it has certainly been the case that in urgent cases, children were being put onto adult psychiatric wards.

Anyone who has spent any time on a psychiatric ward will know that, even for adults, they are edgy, scary, unpredictable places with people behaving quite strangely. To allow a situation to prevail where we are having to put distressed, disturbed children into such an environment is obscene.

One of the compensations for no longer doing the schools work is that I can at least not have to face the troubling and unpleasant decisions that I had to tackle then. I have no idea how those few who remain deal with it, or whether the situation for the children and young people in question is any better, but I highly doubt it.
 
Propaganda to humanise and standardise a mind set in the general public perception.

Strange it is that every time the DWP fuck over mental health or the NHS mental health services get trashed that we then have a raft of I survived stories from MPs, celebs or Ginger Vampires. Which all seam to fail to mention that they all used £500-£350 an hour Harley Street services whilst the rest of us have the option of that wise bloke/gal in the pub or singing Come by yah my Lord come by yar and if that doesn't work well......

Over the past 6 months the DWP have removed all safe guarding guidance references to mental health, they also wrote to all ESA benefit assessors explaining that there is no work related activity which could harm somebodies mental health (so no Support Group for you) and from the 4th of April all new ESA claims once you pass and are not in the Support Group will be paid the same as JSA - so no £27 WRAG premium.

This would be bad enough but things become even worse under Universal Credit which introduces something called "Conditionality" with a hearty serving of sanctions. Billy and his voices now has to go to the Job centre, sign a claimant commitment and then abide by it or face well.... you can guess the rest?

I just hope the DWP have kept the naughty rooms - those with only a tiny gap under the safety glass - as these measures just put everybody in harms way!
 
Both round here (north and south of the borough) have pretty much been reduced to one CPN and his dog. Now it's pretty much "see your GP" or "wait 6 months for an appt at the Maudsley".

That sounds all very pre 2010! I'd like existentialist view on this but things became decidedly worse once IAPT became the gateway.

Lambeth now has Lambeth Living based on the 3rd floor of Streathem job centre who control referrals. Unlike IAPT where you run through tick boxes and scripts like a call centre you'll actually meet a CPN in a local location, who then manages your referral/s from that point.

They also have a quite experienced (worked in different countries) trained (not by the NHS) Psychiatrist - he writes reports as if he'd actually listened to you and understood what you were telling him.

Fuck me it's a revelation :eek:

You still will not be seen by any 2ndry mental health team in Lambeth due to the price of cuckou clocks in where-ever but its a good start :thumbs:
 
what, no cmht?

Both round here (north and south of the borough) have pretty much been reduced to one CPN and his dog. Now it's pretty much "see your GP" or "wait 6 months for an appt at the Maudsley".

There's fuck all here too. I've been offered the poundland/CBT approach i mentioned above, but now over the phone. This is because my local surgery is open part time now (thanks Andy!) and can't offer a room locally. The alternative is to spend more money on exuberant bus fares which I'm not prepared to do. Phone psychology is a joke IMO.

Yeah, I was exaggerating when I said there was literally nothing, but in practice there might as well be nothing unless you're well enough to wait for a year or two. And at every stage, you'll be explicitly told that if you can afford it you should go private - not out of concern for the profits of the private MH industry, but because people recognise that you need help quicker than they can provide.
 
That sounds all very pre 2010! I'd like existentialist view on this but things became decidedly worse once IAPT became the gateway.

Lambeth now has Lambeth Living based on the 3rd floor of Streathem job centre who control referrals. Unlike IAPT where you run through tick boxes and scripts like a call centre you'll actually meet a CPN in a local location, who then manages your referral/s from that point.

They also have a quite experienced (worked in different countries) trained (not by the NHS) Psychiatrist - he writes reports as if he'd actually listened to you and understood what you were telling him.

Fuck me it's a revelation :eek:

You still will not be seen by any 2ndry mental health team in Lambeth due to the price of cuckou clocks in where-ever but its a good start :thumbs:
I can't speak with any kind of professional authority on IAPT - it's something I've had very little to do with. And, while I think there are people for whom that kind of approach, professionally delivered, can make a real difference, my early anxieties that it would get used as a catch-all for anyone with mental health problems, regardless of their suitability, seem to have been realised - the availability of any kind of service seems to become a binary option to other bureaucratic silos who, without any understanding of the details, perceive the existence of a putative solution to some problems as reason for arguing that anyone still having problems has chosen to "stay ill".

I said I haven't had any professional experience of IAPT, but I have seen clients who had been through the process, and for whom it was, at best, not helpful (of course, I have to point out that it is unlikely that I would encounter those for whom it was a successful intervention). Most of those clients came away with a sense that, because the expected outcomes had not been achieved, they had somehow failed. For quite a few, considerable encouragement was necessary to reassure them that they weren't letting themselves in for more of the same.

Another issue that rears its ugly head is that therapy - any therapy - isn't going to work if the client isn't on board with it. You simply cannot force therapy on someone and expect to make any realistic difference to them. The problem is that, while therapy services like IAPT are founded in the same core principles that all therapeutic approaches use regarding client autonomy, they then become a tool to which other agencies, who are not bound by the same rules, can push people onto. Then, when the intervention fails to achieve any results, the problem is seen by such agencies as a failure on the part of the client.

That of course is not helped by outfits like DWP misusing cod-psychology notions so as to give themselves licence to "treat" benefits claimants using their new (and largely half-baked) ideas - thus we have the referral pathway into IAPT, work coaches, all the manualised motivational bollocks, even the ludicrously over-the-top internal "Woo! Yay! Go us!" management garbage we occasionally get leaks of.

The appalling gap in understanding that MPs habitually demonstrate, barring the occasional bit of first-hand experience, about mental illness makes me seriously doubtful that our politicians are the right people to be making decisions which profoundly influence the way mental health is treated. I think the interest in psychology which began with "nudge units" has spiralled out to encompass a similarly naive view about how to resolve mental health problems in general, and things like IAPT have been elevated into universal panaceas, curing worklessness and unhappiness with equal ease - yes, folks, it's a dessert topping and a floor wax! Which is pretty unfair on IAPT and its practitioners, and even more unfair on the poor bastards getting funnelled through the process on completely spurious grounds.

IAPT, and all the other approaches, are tools - like a spanner; fine for doing certain jobs, but if you start using them to bang nails in, you wreck both nail and spanner.
 
You're a cynical bunch. If it wasn't for this campaign I wouldn't know the hardships that future Queens go through staying at home with their kids.
 
You're a cynical bunch. If it wasn't for this campaign I wouldn't know the hardships that future Queens go through staying at home with their kids.


You ever watched daytime tv? It's a wonder they've not topped emselves yet.
 
I can't speak with any kind of professional authority on IAPT - it's something I've had very little to do with. And, while I think there are people for whom that kind of approach, professionally delivered, can make a real difference, my early anxieties that it would get used as a catch-all for anyone with mental health problems, regardless of their suitability, seem to have been realised - the availability of any kind of service seems to become a binary option to other bureaucratic silos who, without any understanding of the details, perceive the existence of a putative solution to some problems as reason for arguing that anyone still having problems has chosen to "stay ill".

I said I haven't had any professional experience of IAPT, but I have seen clients who had been through the process, and for whom it was, at best, not helpful (of course, I have to point out that it is unlikely that I would encounter those for whom it was a successful intervention). Most of those clients came away with a sense that, because the expected outcomes had not been achieved, they had somehow failed. For quite a few, considerable encouragement was necessary to reassure them that they weren't letting themselves in for more of the same.

Another issue that rears its ugly head is that therapy - any therapy - isn't going to work if the client isn't on board with it. You simply cannot force therapy on someone and expect to make any realistic difference to them. The problem is that, while therapy services like IAPT are founded in the same core principles that all therapeutic approaches use regarding client autonomy, they then become a tool to which other agencies, who are not bound by the same rules, can push people onto. Then, when the intervention fails to achieve any results, the problem is seen by such agencies as a failure on the part of the client.

That of course is not helped by outfits like DWP misusing cod-psychology notions so as to give themselves licence to "treat" benefits claimants using their new (and largely half-baked) ideas - thus we have the referral pathway into IAPT, work coaches, all the manualised motivational bollocks, even the ludicrously over-the-top internal "Woo! Yay! Go us!" management garbage we occasionally get leaks of.

The appalling gap in understanding that MPs habitually demonstrate, barring the occasional bit of first-hand experience, about mental illness makes me seriously doubtful that our politicians are the right people to be making decisions which profoundly influence the way mental health is treated. I think the interest in psychology which began with "nudge units" has spiralled out to encompass a similarly naive view about how to resolve mental health problems in general, and things like IAPT have been elevated into universal panaceas, curing worklessness and unhappiness with equal ease - yes, folks, it's a dessert topping and a floor wax! Which is pretty unfair on IAPT and its practitioners, and even more unfair on the poor bastards getting funnelled through the process on completely spurious grounds.

IAPT, and all the other approaches, are tools - like a spanner; fine for doing certain jobs, but if you start using them to bang nails in, you wreck both nail and spanner.

I'd like a bigger like button as if you weave in the Social Security Health Committee who incepted IAPT as a joint NHS/DWP venture, you'd realise that its the same operational model that's now being applied to ESA claimants as part of the new 18 month or less review conditionality via Ingeus referrals via the new DWP Health n Work program.

Just waiting for the 1st sanction due to not getting better fast enough due to statistical variance calculations because they were not trying hard enough to get better :thumbs:
 
are we better off in wales? we have a counselling-by-stealth programme in primary that kid1's made use of in the past. she's having some problems atm and while she doesn't want to join the high school counselling programme, there is one.

and the best joined-up mental health provision i've had was while i was at uni (as a mature student) - free weekly counselling with ten days to first assessment, plus disability support to help with useless programme staff. there was nothing like it cos i asked when i was a student the first time around (mid-90s)

Worse off in some ways. We would need about three times as many properly trained psychotherapists in Wales to achieve parity with the rest of the UK in adult mental health, and there's no systematic programme in place or political will that I can see to remedy that. The local adult services, with exceptions like the team I'm fortunate enough to work in, I find slightly shameful, out of date, and embarrassing, although other areas of the country are doing better.

I don't think CAMHS are any better tbh.

Better off in that Welsh government hasn't made the same cuts of adult social services that are having such an awful effect on the NHS in England, and talking to colleagues over the border, although you're more likely to be offered a talking treatment there, here, if you're lucky, you might wait less time for it. There's increasing evidence that being on a waiting list seems to be worse for your mh than being offered no treatment so maybe the Welsh system is better from that point of view too. :(

Re: IAPT - it does vary hugely depending where you live in England, but the investment in training in provision which was undoubtedly a huge success, and you don't need to take my word for it, the evidence is published for all to see (with the usual provisos that even the best therapy, with the best evidence, provided by the best therapists, is not going to work for a significant proportion of people) but there was always an element of faustian pact involved. They got the funding because they pointed out to government that there were effective therapies not being offered to people who then spent their lives at home in poor health for lack of treatment. They pointed out that £1 spent on training and treatment would save more than £1 in increased GDP and lower benefit payments. So IAPT was always funded on the basis than it would save more than it cost - in some areas like Lambeth I think they've gone obscenely too far in making that link to the point I find it disgusting - I'd also say it was obscene that the only way mh secured funding was to appeal to that rather than on the obvious moral imperative of shared humanity, but I'm not a cabinet minister. I'd rather have IAPT than no bloody funding at all, and the DWP still forcing people into to bullshit "CBT" lite programmes, which is essentially where we're at in Wales.
 
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So by the sounds of it, the 'work coach' can compel the claimant (presumably ESA claimants) to fulfill 'claimant commitments' just like JSA claimants (all the same I suppose under UC). I have an interview like this (it seems) on the 8th. Can't say this inspires me :(

I REALLY cannot emphasis how much I dread the idea of some DWP 'coach' telling me I have to set goals and then make me sign my financial secutiry away on that basis. Fuck that noise.
 
"Nobody gets anything" is how it works nowadays. MH provision has effectively been privatised; if you need a therapist or a psych you get told to go private.

That's not quite true - there is still a 'traditional' long-term non-cbt talking therapy service in my borough but you generally have to wait 18 months for it
 
So can peeps with anxiety and such be entitled to telephone work focussed interviews instead of having to attend in person?
 
So can peeps with anxiety and such be entitled to telephone work focussed interviews instead of having to attend in person?

They should be, but given how difficult it can be to assert your rights with regard to the DWP bureaucracy, you can't depend on it happening. :(
 
They should be, but given how difficult it can be to assert your rights with regard to the DWP bureaucracy, you can't depend on it happening. :(
Right, but to be clear, if I were to ring up the guy and ask, am I entitled to that under legislation or whatever. Or is it just a discretionary thing that, if you happen to get the right advisor, he or she would be willing.

Just to be clear. Thanks.
 
Right, but to be clear, if I were to ring up the guy and ask, am I entitled to that under legislation or whatever. Or is it just a discretionary thing that, if you happen to get the right advisor, he or she would be willing.

Just to be clear. Thanks.

If you have an impairment, physical or mental, that would usually prevent you getting to an appointment, then they should give you a phone appointment.

As you say though, it's down to getting the right advisor who won't argue the toss with you just to brighten up their day.
 
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