The Rational Proof of God's Existence

[phildwyer]

Loaves and fishes
Water - wine
back from the dead.
walk on water

Well, back from the dead is a bit different, but you're right that alleged miracles have done a great deal to discredit religion. This started just after Yeshua of Nazareth's execution. Simon Magus, assuming that he'd been a magician, approached Peter and asked to buy the secrets of his tricks. Simon has since become the Christian paradigm of a magician, and also of ecclesiastical corruption--he gave his name to "simony" in fact. And the disgraceful shenenigans of the *Catholic* church with regard to miracles is notorious, and one of the main reasons I despise that institution.

Historically, of course, all three monotheistic religions have campaigned violently against magic, often staging purges in which tens of thousands of magicians were executed. The assumption was not the magic did not work, but that it worked through the agency of Satan. This accusation was leveled against Yeshua by the Pharisees, who said he cast our devils by means of devils. In reply, Yeshua says the most aggressive lines attributed to him: he tells them they've committed the *unforgiveable* sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. The incongruity of this statement suggests that the author of the Gospel saw magic as a serious charge that had to be refuted.

Personally, I think Yeshua probably *was* a magician of some sort, among many other things. One thing I *don't* believe he was, though, is the incarnation of Yahweh. So you see that I am not a Christian, although I certainly do believe in God. Does any of this help?

 

[ZWord]

Although sometimes when I approve of your targets nino, I find it quite funny, and think -well said-, I think you could just as well be talking about yourself as about phil.

I can see why you find him annoying, but, to say that he bullies is fairly ridiculous, - ? What do you mean by it? Maybe he reminds you of yourself, or you feel he's competing for your niche on the board as an intellectual authority, nino the wise.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Well, back from the dead is a bit different, but you're right that alleged miracles have done a great deal to discredit religion. This started just after Yeshua of Nazareth's execution. Simon Magus, assuming that he'd been a magician, approached Peter and asked to buy the secrets of his tricks. Simon has since become the Christian paradigm of a magician, and also of ecclesiastical corruption--he gave his name to "simony" in fact. And the disgraceful shenenigans of the *Catholic* church with regard to miracles is notorious, and one of the main reasons I despise that institution.

Historically, of course, all three monotheistic religions have campaigned violently against magic, often staging purges in which tens of thousands of magicians were executed. The assumption was not the magic did not work, but that it worked through the agency of Satan. This accusation was leveled against Yeshua by the Pharisees, who said he cast our devils by means of devils. In reply, Yeshua says the most aggressive lines attributed to him: he tells them they've committed the *unforgiveable* sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. The incongruity of this statement suggests that the author of the Gospel saw magic as a serious charge that had to be refuted.

Personally, I think Yeshua probably *was* a magician of some sort, among many other things. One thing I *don't* believe he was, though, is the incarnation of Yahweh. So you see that I am not a Christian, although I certainly do believe in God. Does any of this help?

So you don't think any of Jesus magic tricks and all the angels and arcs are any more ture than a nice story or fable, that's a good start.

But who the fuck is this Yeshua?

How do you stand with Dan Brown?

 

[Crispy]

Although sometimes when I approve of your targets nino, I find it quite funny, and think -well said-, I think you could just as well be talking about yourself as about phil.

I can see why you find him annoying, but, to say that he bullies is fairly ridiculous, - ? What do you mean by it? Maybe he reminds you of yourself, or you feel he's competing for your niche on the board as an intellectual authority, nino the wise.

Yeah. it's not very pretty. I mean, the guy's a fair target, but by being so snide you're no better than him. If it feels good typing a barbed reply, take a moment to think "why?"

And now, I shall abide by Phil's wishes and merely snigger from the sidelines

 

[phildwyer]

So you don't think any of Jesus magic tricks and all the angels and arcs are any more ture than a nice story or fable, that's a good start.

I didn't say "angels." Angels are real, obviously. What is an "arc?"

 

[phildwyer]

nino the wise.

That's about as appropriate as Ethelred the Great.

 

[ZWord]

I heard this from a quabbalah freak in Israel.

Apparently yeshua is made from three hebrew letters. the first, Y, and the last Ah, make the word jah, as in God. And the middle -shin-, means fire, so yeshua means the fire of God. I can't remember the numerology of the name though.

I also heard from a serious jewish guy who lived in the occupied territories, orthodox but not the dressing up sort - that there's a longstanding jewish tradition regarding the execution of Jesus that it was done at the request of the leading jews, because they believed he was a magician, and that he was leading the people away from the true jewish God, and getting them to follow some other spirit.

What's interesting about this story, is that of course the teller had never read the new testament, so it's interesting how far their tradition agrees with it.

 

[Fruitloop]

I didn't say "angels." Angels are real, obviously. What is an "arc?"

Can you elaborate on the reality of angels?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

I didn't say "angels." Angels are real, obviously. What is an "arc?"

What? Angels are real 'obviously'?
Not very obvious to me.

Noah went around in a big old arc because god told him to.

Trouble is he forgot the unicorns and the stegasauruses.

 

[magneze]

Can you elaborate on the reality of angels?

A real angel, yesterday.

 

[nino_savatte]

Although sometimes when I approve of your targets nino, I find it quite funny, and think -well said-, I think you could just as well be talking about yourself as about phil.

I can see why you find him annoying, but, to say that he bullies is fairly ridiculous, - ? What do you mean by it? Maybe he reminds you of yourself, or you feel he's competing for your niche on the board as an intellectual authority, nino the wise.

Nice try, son. Phil doesn't remind me of myself at all and I don't think you'll get many to take on board your thesis either.

Perhaps you didn't see the gun thread that he started, where he bullied anyone who didn't accept his warped ideas...or perhaps you didn't notice his bullying on this thread and his magnum opus, "Darwinists running scared".

I only go after people who I think are on wind-up missions. Phil is on a wind-up mission. naturally i don't expect you to understand that since you've got it into your head that I'm the guilty party here.

I look forward to your reply. It ought to be very interesting, if not very patronising.

 

[kyser_soze]

Yup, angels are obviouslyreal. Haven't any of you guys seen or read Constantine? along with demons they are EVERYWHERE.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yup, angels are obviouslyreal. Haven't any of you guys seen or read Constantine? along with demons they are EVERYWHERE.

Oh aye and don't forget there's also that lovely telly program Touched By an Angel
.

 

[magneze]

Admittedly I do believe in Angels more than I believe in Keanu Reeves.

 

[nino_savatte]

Admittedly I do believe in Angels more than I believe in Keanu Reeves.

 

[Santino]

Historically, of course, all three monotheistic religions have campaigned violently against magic, often staging purges in which tens of thousands of magicians were executed.

Really? Tens of thousands? Would you care to furnish us with something to back up that rather bold statement of fact?

 

[phildwyer]

Really? Tens of thousands? Would you care to furnish us with something to back up that rather bold statement of fact?

Although earlier scholars put the figure in the hundreds of thousands, most now agree that a *conservative* estimate of the number of people killed only during the last European witch-hunt (circa 1580--1680) would be fifty thousand.

 

[Santino]

Riiight. And what about the Muslim and Jewish persecution of magicians? Any numbers on that?

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Well, back from the dead is a bit different, but you're right that alleged miracles have done a great deal to discredit religion. This started just after Yeshua of Nazareth's execution. Simon Magus, assuming that he'd been a magician, approached Peter and asked to buy the secrets of his tricks. Simon has since become the Christian paradigm of a magician, and also of ecclesiastical corruption--he gave his name to "simony" in fact. And the disgraceful shenenigans of the *Catholic* church with regard to miracles is notorious, and one of the main reasons I despise that institution.

Historically, of course, all three monotheistic religions have campaigned violently against magic, often staging purges in which tens of thousands of magicians were executed. The assumption was not the magic did not work, but that it worked through the agency of Satan. This accusation was leveled against Yeshua by the Pharisees, who said he cast our devils by means of devils. In reply, Yeshua says the most aggressive lines attributed to him: he tells them they've committed the *unforgiveable* sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. The incongruity of this statement suggests that the author of the Gospel saw magic as a serious charge that had to be refuted.

Personally, I think Yeshua probably *was* a magician of some sort, among many other things. One thing I *don't* believe he was, though, is the incarnation of Yahweh. So you see that I am not a Christian, although I certainly do believe in God. Does any of this help?

I understand .

It's been obvious from the start that Phil is not a Christian. Maybe an Essene is closer.

 

[phildwyer]

It's been obvious from the start that Phil is not a Christian. Maybe an Essene is closer.

In fact like all right-thinking people I am an antinomian Arian. Although I confess to a youthful tenedncy towards pseudo-Manichaenism, which occasionally resurfaces under the influence.

 

[kyser_soze]

Surely it's like this:

UNdead - Zombies, vampires and the like.

The Dead - Rufus from Dogma

Angels/Demons - huge numbers of differing origin accounts, but...mythical beings created from the basic stuff of the universe pior to mankind. Generically held responsible for influencing/changing human behaviour (this is a cross-religion thing - Angels for monotheisic religions are, IMV, merely a tool for selling the faith to polytheistic religions they assimilated) and as voice of the God/s.

Wiki on Angels...

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

In fact like all right-thinking people I am an antinomian Arian. Although I confess to a youthful tenedncy towards pseudo-Manichaenism, which occasionally resurfaces under the influence.

Oh god they were right, you are a compleate nob.

 

[phildwyer]

Surely it's like this:

UNdead - Zombies, vampires and the like.

The Dead - Rufus from Dogma

Angels/Demons - huge numbers of differing origin accounts, but...mythical beings created from the basic stuff of the universe pior to mankind. Generically held responsible for influencing/changing human behaviour (this is a cross-religion thing - Angels for monotheisic religions are, IMV, merely a tool for selling the faith to polytheistic religions they assimilated) and as voice of the God/s.

Wiki on Angels...

It is *saints* rather than angels who have been used by monotheists to sell their faiths to polytheists. Monotheism understands angels as manifestations of the logos (in Christianity the "Son"). In the Hellenic tradition they are manifestations of the eternal Ideal Forms. Either way they clearly exist. The problem is that many people imagine angels to by Flying Babies, since that is how they are often represented in the visual arts. Because they know that Flying Babies do not exist, they foolishly conclude that the same is true of angels.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

It is *saints* rather than angels who have been used by monotheists to sell their faiths to polytheists. Monotheism understands angels as manifestations of the logos (in Christianity the "Son"). In the Hellenic tradition they are manifestations of the eternal Ideal Forms. Either way they clearly exist. The problem is that many people imagine angels to by Flying Babies, since that is how they are often represented in the visual arts. Because they know that Flying Babies do not exist, they foolishly conclude that the same is true of angels.

OK so they are not guys with wings, what makes you say they clearlyexist you nutbag.

 

[nino_savatte]

And what exactly is a saint, apart from the 'deification' of a person who was once living? It is an idea borrowed directly from Rome, where popular emperors (Augustus was one) were always declared gods. Sainthood is a load of bollocks - political bollocks to more precise.

 

[phildwyer]

And what exactly is a saint, apart from the 'deification' of a person who was once living? It is an idea borrowed directly from Rome, where popular emperors (Augustus was one) were always declared gods. Sainthood is a load of bollocks - political bollocks to more precise.

Phildwyer In "Total Agreement With Nino" Shocker. Hold the front page.

 

[phildwyer]

OK so they are not guys with wings, what makes you say they clearlyexist you nutbag.

Oh very well. Its a bit of a distraction frankly, but I suppose that proving that angels exist might be a step on the road to proving that God exists, so let's get on with it. But we will have to proceed step-by-step. First of all, can we agree that *ideas* exist?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Oh very well. Its a bit of a distraction frankly, but I suppose that proving that angels exist might be a step on the road to proving that God exists, so let's get on with it. But we will have to proceed step-by-step. First of all, can we agree that *ideas* exist?

Fine, I can have ideas. Next.

 

[kyser_soze]

Primitive polytheists wouldn't process ideas like sainthood - the idea that a human could be 'created' into a mythical power capable of miracles wouldn't hold truck, but there is an easy way to link angels - individual gods-of-behaviour/events since the Angels in the OT are products of His creation and are more powerful (in their abilities if not existence) than Man.

Think about it - you're a post animist polytheist culuture. You've moved past worshipping nature and are just about ready to accept the idea of a single God but still can't understand how one God can do it all...Angels are a handy stepping stone...anyhoo, that's speculation on my part.

BUT...given that even within a monotheistic religion like Judaism, individual cities worshipped specific Angels/Demons pre-Flood it suggests that unless the monotheism is strictly enforced people will worship who and what they please provided it gives them the 'answers' they agree with/are looking for.

Sainthood as a sales tool only really happened when Catholics started assimilating Northern European pagans - I mean come on. Martyrdom to the faith followed by Saintood and a 'better' life in Heaven? To a battling, possibly oppressed religious believer this is a great incentive. I mean, how far away is sellin Sainthood from selling 70 Virgins in Heaven to a similarly 'oppressed' religious faith?

 

[Santino]

Ideas exist in people's heads, and nowhere else.

Next.