The Question of England

[Azrael]

[...] It could include some reconfigured elements of the Labour Party, which if Scotland became independent it would presumably have to reconfigure itself in some way. [...]

Given SLab's enthusiastic hemorrhaging of its few remaining members, this may well happen before Scotland goes her own way, an example of what I mean by a progressive English politics rising by default. Although since SLab's overinflated yins won't even let Leonard host an away day on the constitution, wouldn't bet against 'em still debating federalism as the Union Flag beside Holyrood's being lowered for the last time.

 

[brixtonscot]

OK but you still must have some idea about what you mean by left.

Socialists/communists/anarchists in general - but possibly also something like IWCA , who as I understand it , went back to drawing board in attempt to build something new from the ground up.
Which maybe what is needed as I'm not aware of any Left organisations at present with any credible potential to offer a viable opposition to the current order.
I realise socialists & communists have differing views on the state to anarchists.

 

[brixtonscot]

England is not a nation-state.

Yes I realise that , I haven't suggested it is.
Although England could possibly become a nation-state if Scotland (& Wales) became independant

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The trouble with being English is that it’s just too exclusive for present day realities. I was born in England and speak only English fluently, but my heritage is mainly Irish with a bit of Scottish thrown in. My family includes lots with Irish, Italian, Mauritian and, yes, English ancestry. But none of us are flag wavers of either the Union Jack or the English flag thingy. So many of the other inhabitants of the land of Albion hail from India, Pakistan, the Caribbean etc etc, or have roots going back to French Huguenots or Flemings, or have relatives scattered all around the globe. Why should anyone at all progressive think there is any value in Englishness per se? British or European, for all their many faults, are far more inclusive concepts. Just because populists all over the place seem to be on the rise right now is no reason to fall into line in the hope that some of that kudos will somehow rub off on us.

 

[brixtonscot]

Does England exist ?

England Doesn’t Exist

There’s a void at the heart of English identity, with its reliance on empty clichés and old dreams of empire. But decentralizing power to the regions points to an alternative — replacing narrow nationalism with an inclusive community pride.

www.jacobinmag.com

 

[Puddy_Tat]

does England exist ?

i hope so

i'd hate to think that the bus i am on is travelling through a figment of the imagination

 

[brixtonscot]

The Death of England

 

[brixtonscot]

The trouble with being English is that it’s just too exclusive for present day realities. I was born in England and speak only English fluently, but my heritage is mainly Irish with a bit of Scottish thrown in. My family includes lots with Irish, Italian, Mauritian and, yes, English ancestry. But none of us are flag wavers of either the Union Jack or the English flag thingy. So many of the other inhabitants of the land of Albion hail from India, Pakistan, the Caribbean etc etc, or have roots going back to French Huguenots or Flemings, or have relatives scattered all around the globe. Why should anyone at all progressive think there is any value in Englishness per se? British or European, for all their many faults, are far more inclusive concepts. Just because populists all over the place seem to be on the rise right now is no reason to fall into line in the hope that some of that kudos will somehow rub off on us.

It's not so much about being English or Englishness - more about political perspectives on England

 

[brogdale]

It's not so much about being English or Englishness - more about political perspectives on England

It might help the thread along if you could identify political issues that have an exceptionally 'English' quality that the 'left' should be addressing.

 

[steeplejack]

Alex Niven's recent book 'new model island' is interesting on this sort of thing, very readable too. I didn't agree with all of it, but definitely thought-provoking

I enjoyed this too. Clearly pretty utopian in places and I didn't think the odd mixture between Niven's cloying passages on personal anxiety / insecurity, and his visionary, utopian passages on what England might be really worked. The idea of dividing the country diagonally in two, and the idea that England doesn't really seem to exist, other than as a chimera / living museum, was persuasive. A good provocation.

When the Union worked well enough people thought the question of England was for cranks and obscurantists, a question that no-one need bother answering. The payload of that indifference certainly making itself felt now.

 

[steeplejack]

Or the English Democrats. Remember them?

ah, Eddie Butler. Whatever happened to him?

 

[brixtonscot]

It might help the thread along if you could identify political issues that have an exceptionally 'English' quality that the 'left' should be addressing.

As I already said.....the possibility of Scottish independence and Irish unification together with Brxit is likely to see a continuing rise in right wing English nationalism in response. How will the Left in England address that ?

 

[redsquirrel]

No offence brixtonscot but you've thrown up a lot of points, especially in your OP, and it is not clear exactly what you are trying to get at. For example you talk about "no progressive patriotism" but the Left (as you define it) has very little to do with progressive patriotism, it is mostly a LP thing.

As I already said.....the possibility of Scottish independence and Irish unification together with Brxit is likely to see a continuing rise in right wing English nationalism in response. How will the Left in England address that ?

If this is the key point then my answer would be that that response to right wing English nationalism needs to be driven by the working class not by "the Left". As always it's about (re-)building working class self-organisation, which, I agree with you, is often best done via local organising.

 

[brogdale]

No offence brixtonscot but you've thrown up a lot of points, especially in your OP, and it is not clear exactly what you are trying to get at. For example you talk about "no progressive patriotism" but the Left (as you define it) has very little to do with progressive patriotism, it is mostly a LP thing.


If this is the key point then my answer would be that that response to right wing English nationalism needs to be driven by the working class not by "the Left". As always it's about (re-)building working class self-organisation, which, I agree with you, is often best done via local organising.

I may be wrong, but I think that brixtonscot 's OP was principally prompted by Rebecca Long Bailey's Guardian piece in which she said:



Which, to me, reads like a clumsy attempt to address the perceived need to talk about 'patriotism' to please the 'Northerners' in the (former) "red wall" whilst simultaneously pleasing the metropolitan/internationalist 'progressives' of the cities.

But, unsurprisingly, despite what was said in the OP, this being the LP she obviously related this to Britain...not England, although the examples she cited did all happen to be from England.

But, you're right redsquirrel the OP does appear to throw up a load of points; not all of the seemingly related or necessarily relevant to RLB's clumsy attempt to wear some patriotic clothes.

Gotta say I'm not entirely comfortable with the claim that confusing the complex nature of the development of our geographical, historical, & geo-political delineation is an inherently English issue. Is there any evidence that folk living in Scotland, Wales & NI are any better informed about the exact differences between the British Isles, the British islands, the United Kingdom of GB & NI, Great Britain, (historic) Britain and the constituent 'nations' of E, S, W & NI?

I just don't get what is meant by the OPs concluding line:

I believe that the Left located in this place that currently goes by the name England - ignores this Question of England at its peril.

 

[brixtonscot]

If this is the key point then my answer would be that that response to right wing English nationalism needs to be driven by the working class not by "the Left". As always it's about (re-)building working class self-organisation, which, I agree with you, is often best done via local organising.

Agreed, is there any relationship between (re)building working class self-organisation and organisations of the Left ?

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Is there any evidence that folk living in Scotland, Wales & NI are any better informed about the exact differences between the British Isles, the British islands, the United Kingdom of GB & NI, Great Britain, (historic) Britain and the constituent 'nations' of E, S, W & NI?

Anecdote perhaps but as long as I can remember somebody in my family has been patiently explaining to non-brits that we are not English, and why. I can't be alone.

 

[brixtonscot]

Gotta say I'm not entirely comfortable with the claim that confusing the complex nature of the development of our geographical, historical, & geo-political delineation is an inherently English issue.

Would it not become more of an English issue for those living in England with the prospect of Scottish independence and Irish unification ?

I just don't get what is meant by the OPs concluding line:

What I was getting at if the Left (organised and non-organised) in England do not acknowledge and address questions specifically relating to the political "situation" of England - particularly if there's a transition from a U.K. State to an English State - then the Right will exploit the potential chauvinistic , nationalistic , patriotic notions that they associate with England

 

[Blackred]

Many on the Left , say they are not nationalists but internationalists.

I agree with that sentiment , but does the term inter-nationalist , imply some form of connection between (inter) "nationalists",
or at least - between "nationalities" - or those currently located within existing "nations" ?

Could transnationalist be a more accurate term - over and beyond existing nations & nationalities ?

It can be said that "nations" are an illusion - being formed in the interests of the ruling-class downwards in the imagi-nation of imagined communities.

But national identity can also contribute to a profound sense of (imagined) belonging for many people - many of whom are prepared to kill and die for this perception - which are not so easily dismissed as "illusionary" or "false consciousness" - however "true" those analyses may be.

With growing demands for independence in Scotland , right-wing nationalists in England will have the potential to exploit right-wing sentiment in England around some sense of "Englishness" - and if Scotland does become independent of Westminster rule , The Left in England will have no option but to address operating from within an English context. And Wales is another matter.

In her talk referring to "patriotic patriotism" , LP leadership candidate Rebecca Long Bailey was not clear if she was referring to English or British "patriotism". It is not uncommon among many English people to confuse England and Britain.
John McDonnell , speaking in Edinburgh last year, referred to (current) English parliament at Westminster.
It's not so long ago that the Union Jack was the flag of choice for football fans of the English national team.

Is it not possible to pragmatically address "The Question of England" by acknowledging the existence of a "nation" ( initially at least as a geographic region ) that goes by the name England - and acknowledge working-class histories and cultures developed and experienced within this "nation" called England - WITHOUT being nationalistic or patriotic ?

The Left needs to work in local communities to build a movement from the grass-roots upwards , and then connect and expand regionally , then utilising existing frameworks "nationally" , and then inter-"nationally" ( or transnationally ) and eventually globally , towards a world without borders and nations.

I believe that the Left located in this place that currently goes by the name England - ignores this Question of England at its peril.

As Rudolph Rocker the AnarchoSyndicalist claimed in his Magnus Opus Nationalism and Culture loving your country is one thing but Patriotism amounts to love of State and Government.

 

[Shechemite]

For the Love of Capital(s)

 

[RTWL]

I cant see why you cant have a dicussion about, or adress, nationalism in a positive way. The working class in England have been exploited here just the same as anywhere else.

 

[brixtonscot]

I cant see why you cant have a dicussion about, or adress, nationalism in a positive way. The working class in England have been exploited here just the same as anywhere else.

In the context of this discussion I prefer to talk about 'nationality' or 'national identity' - in a matter-of-fact way of referring to a geographic region of where people are living - rather than 'nationalism' which can be associated with promoting particular 'nations'.

 

[brogdale]

In the context of this discussion I prefer to talk about 'nationality' or 'national identity' - in a matter-of-fact way of referring to a geographic region of where people are living - rather than 'nationalism' which can be associated with promoting particular 'nations'.

Up-thread I did suggest you might like to identify any political issues that have an exceptionally 'English' quality that the 'left' should be addressing. That might help focus the discussion and avoid any descent into nationalism?

 

[RTWL]

No. What I am saying is nationalism is not right wing. If you want to spend all your time discussing parameters, go ahead . Personally I would instigate an immediate revolution instead.

Edit. Apolagies, this thread is about parameters .

 

[brixtonscot]

Up-thread I did suggest you might like to identify any political issues that have an exceptionally 'English' quality that the 'left' should be addressing. That might help focus the discussion and avoid any descent into nationalism?

With the scenario of re-unification of Ireland and 6 counties leaving U.K. and possible Scottish independence from U.K. - both of which could boost Welsh demands for independence - leaving the U.K. state to transition into 3 nation states - Scotland , Wales & England - would the 'Left' in England then ( reluctantly ?) address operating in ( and/or against ) an English state ?

 

[brogdale]

With the scenario of re-unification of Ireland and 6 counties leaving U.K. and possible Scottish independence from U.K. - both of which could boost Welsh demands for independence - leaving the U.K. state to transition into 3 nation states - Scotland , Wales & England - would the 'Left' in England then ( reluctantly ?) address operating in ( and/or against ) an English state ?

Yeah, I do get that...I'm just not convinced that the concerns, priorities or proposals from 'the left' would necessarily change. You clearly feel that they would change, given the hypotheticals suggested. I'd just be interested to hear how you think they'd differ from the present in our unitary state of nations?