Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
The one further restriction I would support, is no pump action shotguns. I cannot see a legitimate need.
Should there be a ban on private ownership of firearms in England and Wales - With Poll.
- Thread starter A380
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The one further restriction I would support, is no pump action shotguns. I cannot see a legitimate need.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
No, back in the early 80s about 1 in 10 cops would have had a firearms ticket, most on the basis of 12 days training a year after a four week course ans alongside the day job . Now it’s about 1 in 30 but almost all are full time with about 12 weeks initial training, then five days a month and further specialist courses. The difference is they are far more overt now than when rozzers were wandering around with a revolver under their gortex jacket…
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
The issue with pump action and semi-auto shotguns is not the pump or semi auto thing, it's the capacity to hold more than the 1 or 2 rounds that other shotguns hold.
Currently there is no difference in lethality between a pump action holding 2 rounds and a 'normal' shotgun that also holds 2. Pump action and semi auto shotguns with a capacity of 2 are licensed as other shotguns, and ones that have a capacity of more than 2 are covered by the stricter regulations that cover firearms like rifles. People that want/need the extra capacity have to justify it, and it's used by practical shotgun competition people, farmers, and pest control workers.
'Pump action' has become a bit of a media/lack of knowledge sensationalist kind of thing, it's not meaningful as a way of categorising the lethality of weapons.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
See also the term "assault rife".
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
I'm aware of the licensing distinction between two and three or more rounds in a shotgun.
What I am saying is that there is no need for more than two in a shotgun. A shotgun is a fearsome weapon, I've had the dubious privilege of nursing someone who was hit at close range with a shotgun, the damage was horrible. I've also nursed single solid shot injuries, much less damage.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
So it's not the pump actions you want banning, it's any shotgun with a capacity of more than 2 rounds? (There's some weird magazine fed ones now I think as well as pump and semi auto.)
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
In the UK now you get an ‘extra’ round with a pump action on a shotgun certificate. Two in the magazine and one in the chamber. If you have a firearms licence you can have as many in the magazine as will fit.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Magazine fed shotguns are readily available over in the USA but I'd imagine they're pretty rare in the UK, outside of the military or specialist police units.
David Clapson
Well-Known Member
Ordinary side by side shotguns are so quick to reload that I don't think they're a great deal less of a problem than the pumps.
Dovydaitis
Official fishco fish groupie
I don’t own a gun, never used one and have no interest in doing so. However I have a working gundog and to watch her in action is phenomenal.
Yes, you could rid the country of guns but then you rid the country of recreational gun sports such as clay pigeon, game bird and target. There is a huge industry behind it that will go overnight, manufacturers, game keepers, breeders, land management. Some shoots bring in shed loads of cash to the local community and without it there is nothing.
Guns in the wrongs hands, bad. Knives in the wrong hands, bad. Screwdrivers, keys, mirrors, tin of chopped tomatoes (you get my drift)..... if someone is intent on causing injury, they will do it.
For context, I grew up in a pretty rough urban area but now live in a rural area. I say keep the rules as they are, maybe beef them up a bit. More cash to go into mental health and more than one person per force responsible for gun licences. Yes it’s tragic in Plymouth, but in the grand scheme of things, gun murders in the UK are pretty low. Murders using legal guns even lower.
Yes, you could rid the country of guns but then you rid the country of recreational gun sports such as clay pigeon, game bird and target. There is a huge industry behind it that will go overnight, manufacturers, game keepers, breeders, land management. Some shoots bring in shed loads of cash to the local community and without it there is nothing.
Guns in the wrongs hands, bad. Knives in the wrong hands, bad. Screwdrivers, keys, mirrors, tin of chopped tomatoes (you get my drift)..... if someone is intent on causing injury, they will do it.
For context, I grew up in a pretty rough urban area but now live in a rural area. I say keep the rules as they are, maybe beef them up a bit. More cash to go into mental health and more than one person per force responsible for gun licences. Yes it’s tragic in Plymouth, but in the grand scheme of things, gun murders in the UK are pretty low. Murders using legal guns even lower.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No point. Are you going to ban semi-autos too?
This question comes up every time some fuckwit shoots someone but we've already got some of the tightest gun laws on the planet and a tiny number of people are shot to death with legal guns here. Take out suicides and it's vanishingly rare.
Leave gun laws as they are and spend more money on mental health care.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
likesfish
You can't park here sir
You can get a magazine fed shotgun that can hold 30 rounds it’s the size of a Bren gun and about as heavy! Not nearly as reliable though
Held under section 1 a full firearms licence.
For the sport of practical shotgun don’t regularly attend shoots police will confiscate it
Held under section 1 a full firearms licence.
For the sport of practical shotgun don’t regularly attend shoots police will confiscate it
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
None of the Poll options work for me, the closest probably is making shotguns as hard a s other weapons to legally own, but Id add that being a farmer should not give any extra weight towards the granting of such a licence, the whole pest control arguement for farmers use is bullshit
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Why?
Athos
Well-Known Member
This is bollocks. It's a very effective way of controlling pigeons and crows in particular.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
You have no idea what you're talking about do you!?
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
This attack wasn’t caused by one thing, and several lessons need to be learned.
Ideological violence against women; gender and sex-based harassment, assault and hate speech - these things need to be dealt with the same in law as extremism and persecution based on religion, sexuality or skin colour.
I’m listening to all the arguments but I’m not hearing any reason why a 22 year old construction worker needed a gun. Other than, presumably, hunting for recreation - and I’m sure there are lots of things people would like to do for fun that are not allowed, including having handguns at home since 1996.
It seems like there is a higher level of commitment and training applicable to the certification of rifle usage, so I’m not sure why farmers, dedicated recreational shooters, and so on, shouldn’t be forced to jump through those hoops.
Ideological violence against women; gender and sex-based harassment, assault and hate speech - these things need to be dealt with the same in law as extremism and persecution based on religion, sexuality or skin colour.
I’m listening to all the arguments but I’m not hearing any reason why a 22 year old construction worker needed a gun. Other than, presumably, hunting for recreation - and I’m sure there are lots of things people would like to do for fun that are not allowed, including having handguns at home since 1996.
It seems like there is a higher level of commitment and training applicable to the certification of rifle usage, so I’m not sure why farmers, dedicated recreational shooters, and so on, shouldn’t be forced to jump through those hoops.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Anyone who'd met the man would have armed him with nothing more dangerous than a blunt spoon.
Seriously. If they had spoken to his neighbours, his colleagues, even his own family, they would have known it was madness. His internet history, the previous time he tried to kill someone, for which he got a warning or a caution or something.
I don't want to ban all guns and i have no interest in whether it's a shotgun or not but come on, the bar must be pretty fucking low. Maybe take violent crime more seriously as a starting point.
Seriously. If they had spoken to his neighbours, his colleagues, even his own family, they would have known it was madness. His internet history, the previous time he tried to kill someone, for which he got a warning or a caution or something.
I don't want to ban all guns and i have no interest in whether it's a shotgun or not but come on, the bar must be pretty fucking low. Maybe take violent crime more seriously as a starting point.
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
Please explain how you reached this rather odd conclusion.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No, that's not the case. The vetting process for FACs is very stringent. Something has gone wrong here and this bloke seems to have slipped through a crack somewhere. What needs to happen is a full investigation into what happened and how.
This is almost certainly not a case of the bar being generally set low. It's a fuck-up.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Because they're not the same. If you go down this road then it's hard to see where to stop. Far, far more people are killed with knives than legally held firearms but we don't look to licence kitchen knives.
The failure here was in the bloke being granted a Firearms Certificate, not a Shotgun Certificate, so what you are suggesting wouldn't have prevented this from happening anyway.
Again, this is an extremely uncommon event in the UK. It's because it's so uncommon that when it does happen it's huge news. That leads to all sorts of kneejerk stuff about banning this and licencing that, when the reality is that it actually makes little sense unless you argue that everything that can be used to kill people (no matter how infrequently it happens) should be banned.
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Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
Slipped through a crack. Lol. Lessons will be learnt. Thoughts and prayers etc.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Not sure the sarcasm is warranted. It's almost certainly what has happened. A terrible mistake has been made that has cost a woman, a kid, and others their lives. And you lol. Well done.
Poot
My wife thinks I work too hard
It's too close to home. I'm off this thread.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
It certainly seems to have been a fuck up, and it also seems no one thought of updating the guidance to include checking the social media of anyone looking for a firearms certificate or gun licence, which is a fuck-up in itself, but also doesn't surprise me, TBH.
Beyond his social media, the IOPC's investigation will focus on the gun being returned, after the reported alleged assault last year.
ETA -
Gun licence applicants in UK face social media checks after Plymouth attack
Police asked to review firearm application processes, as minute’s silence to be held in Plymouth
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Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
If you look at the short range lethality of a .22 rifle and a shotgun, I'd rather be shot with the .22 any day. On that basis, it should be harder to get a cert for a shotgun than a .22.
David Clapson
Well-Known Member
But professional hits are sometimes done with a .22.
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