Should there be a ban on private ownership of firearms in England and Wales - With Poll.

[A380]

I salute you comrade Captain-in-Chief of Remedial Company, The Workers 211th Rifles (Reserve).

That should be Comrade Captain-in-Chief. To the gulag with you...

 

[Griff]

I think you'd be surprised about how bad a shot you can be with a shotgun if you've never used one before. Even at a reasonable close range it's quite possible to completely miss with them.

Took a mate clay-shooting just before the first lockdown for the first time and he was appallingly bad, think he managed a lucky 12/100.

 

[stdP]

Doing anything involving firing/throwing projectiles accurately takes several months of practice I think, guns included.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Doing anything involving firing/throwing projectiles accurately takes several months of practice I think, guns included.

a week on a range Unpressured with a decent instructor

 

[stdP]

a week on a range Unpressured with a decent instructor

Well, yeah - I was assuming an only-at-the-weekends-sort-of-hobby-thing. I got competent with a bow after a week (it was one of those summer courses things that parents did to get you out of the house during the summer holidays) although building up the muscle to sustain it would have taken much longer. But almost no-one picks up a gun/bow/dart/snooker cue and is instantly proficient with it. Something of a derail though so I'll shut up about it.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Well, yeah - I was assuming an only-at-the-weekends-sort-of-hobby-thing. I got competent with a bow after a week (it was one of those summer courses things that parents did to get you out of the house during the summer holidays) although building up the muscle to sustain it would have taken much longer. But almost no-one picks up a gun/bow/dart/snooker cue and is instantly proficient with it. Something of a derail though so I'll shut up about it.

This is where shotguns help

 

[StoneRoad]

Make obtaining all firearm / shotgun (and powerful air rifles etc) certificates more difficult - ie limit the reasons you can have one. If not kept at a gun club it needs to be stored very securely [random inspections ?].

Also certificates need to be regularly renewed.
There needs to be more frequent background [and social media posts etc] checks to allow revocations for when people cease to be "safe" owners.

Regular competency tests for safe handling of guns and ammunition (if not accuracy).

Personally, I would want most guns to be out of circulation ... if not actually melted down and beaten into ploughshares !

 

[stdP]

This is where shotguns help

I think that's another movie myth - the "spread" of shot from a shotgun isn't actually that wide, although this depends greatly on ammunition. Birdshot (a large number of very small pellets) probably spreads the most and this page says it'd have a spread of about 40" at 40yds but you'd be very hard pressed to kill anyone with it. The spread from regular buckshot is much smaller, about half an inch of spread for every yard was the rule of thumb back in the day.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I think that's another movie myth - the "spread" of shot from a shotgun isn't actually that wide, although this depends greatly on ammunition. Birdshot (a large number of very small pellets) probably spreads the most and this page says it'd have a spread of about 40" at 40yds but you'd be very hard pressed to kill anyone with it. The spread from regular buckshot is much smaller, about half an inch of spread for every yard was the rule of thumb back in the day.

Well thanks for your Google-pro input

Next time someone points a shotgun at me I’ll be be more relaxed about it.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I think that's another movie myth - the "spread" of shot from a shotgun isn't actually that wide, although this depends greatly on ammunition. Birdshot (a large number of very small pellets) probably spreads the most and this page says it'd have a spread of about 40" at 40yds but you'd be very hard pressed to kill anyone with it. The spread from regular buckshot is much smaller, about half an inch of spread for every yard was the rule of thumb back in the day.

Depends on the choke, too.

I used to go to a gun range many moons ago with a friend we named Tackleberry, and what I can say about pistol owners is that I didn't meet a single one I'd trust with a gun. They were all batshit crazy, just like Tackleberry. The same didn't seem to apply to rifle and shotgun owners.

 

[Serge Forward]

Hail the Workers 211th Rifles

The 211th are nowt but petty bourgeois revisionists The 210th on the other hand are the council communists and the 212th are anarcho communists. All hail the 210th and 212th!!!!

 

[stdP]

Depends on the choke, too.

I used to go to a gun range many moons ago with a friend we named Tackleberry, and what I can say about pistol owners is that I didn't meet a single one I'd trust with a gun. They were all batshit crazy, just like Tackleberry. The same didn't seem to apply to rifle and shotgun owners.

Yeah, there's lots of variations, but the spread in many movies is frequently comically large. There was a Bond film I remember seeing where a hole 2' wide is blown through a wall from a shotgun fired 2 metres away. I've never fired a pistol (other than an air pistol) - target shooting was all .22's for the starters and graduating to some single shot bolt-actions and, if you were very lucky, a go on an SMLE. The owner liked to demonstrate the "mad minute" with it. What/why do you think the pistol shooters were crazy though, what sort of form did their craziness take...?

Next time someone points a shotgun at me I’ll be be more relaxed about it.

Indeed! Please ask them what sort of ammunition they're using and whether or not their barrel has a choke or not before they shoot you please...

 

[Saul Goodman]

What/why do you think the pistol shooters were crazy though, what sort of form did their craziness take...?

First lad I met sat down with Tackleberry and me, and explained how

Spoiler: Do not read!

he'd managed to get his foot right up to the ankle into his girlfriend's arse the previous night.

like it was something I'd really be interested in.
Next guy was an optician, he had a Desert Eagle, and was running around the range like a demented cop from a 1970s American TV show, ducking in and out of cover and showing everyone how great his laser sight was. Then there was my mate, Tackleberry. As the name suggests, he was a fucking head the ball. He had the same .44 Magnum that Dirty Harry used, and refused to press his own bullets because they weren't powerful enough, factory load were much more powerful. He had a collection of guns that no sane person should have, and he always had a manic grin whilst exploding blocks of 4x4 hardwood. He was the epitome of his namesake.
They were all like overgrown children.

 

[A380]

The 211th are nowt but petty bourgeois revisionists The 210th on the other hand are the council communists and the 212th are anarcho communists. All hail the 210th and 212th!!!!

But we in the 211th have the advantage of being BEHIND you running dogs.

 

[weltweit]

He could have carried out his spree with a knife.

Don't ban guns, but by all means be more choosy on who gets permits.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Well thanks for your Google-pro input

Next time someone points a shotgun at me I’ll be be more relaxed about it.

from experience turning away and running like hell is the correct attitude, ideally not in a straight line.

 

[moochedit]

The 211th are nowt but petty bourgeois revisionists The 210th on the other hand are the council communists and the 212th are anarcho communists. All hail the 210th and 212th!!!!

Splitters!

 

[Athos]

I'd ban them all for recreational purposes, and only allow them for people who could demonstrate a genuine need to have one e.g. pest control. And then it'd be the minimum necessary for that task e.g. controls on how quickly they could be reloaded and how much ammunition they can have, and make the process stricter - more spot checks, meaningful psych assessments.

One issue you'd have to get around is the fact that many people with licenses are reluctant to seek help for mental health issues for fear they'll lose their permit, and the stigma that comes with that.

 

[NoXion]

Red herring. We should ban incels instead.

 

[A380]

Red herring. We should ban incels instead.

Well, that’s that one solved at last. Well done.

 

[NoXion]

Well, that’s that one solved at last. Well done.

So let's melt down every firearm in the country, and then pretend to act surprised when the next incel spree killer uses a hire van to run down a whole bunch of people instead.

 

[Pickman's model]

So let's melt down every firearm in the country, and then pretend to act surprised when the next incel spree killer uses a hire van to run down a whole bunch of people instead.

Or an expedient home-made firearm, diagrams and instructions for which are readily available on the internet

 

[NoXion]

Or an expedient home-made firearm, diagrams and instructions for which are readily available on the internet

I'd wager that for most aspiring spree murderers, getting a driving licence is easier and less likely to raise suspicions.

 

[8ball]

Red herring. We should ban incels instead.

Have you seen The Lobster?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Somewhere between the last two (sensible) options. Tighten up the process for owning a shotgun, but not to the levels required for rifles/full firearms certificate.

There are over half a million shotgun certificates in England alone.

To the end of 2018, there were 33 gun deaths in England, involving all firearms, legal and illegal.

The number of homicides involving legally held firearms is tiny.

I think that the law as it stands is about right.

(I don't shoot, and have no intention of doing so.)

 

[8ball]

Yeah, I think this was a system failure as opposed to the system's rules being wrong.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Took a mate clay-shooting just before the first lockdown for the first time and he was appallingly bad, think he managed a lucky 12/100.

I used to shoot clays at the club at RAF Gutersloh.

Regularly hit 25 out of 30. Fixed line trap.

Then we got an Olympic Ball Trap, clay can come out anywhere, high low, left, right. Went from 25 to 6 the first time we used the thing.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Yeah, I think this was a system failure as opposed to the system's rules being wrong.

So look at the system, what can be improved, how are checks done, would any additional rules help etc

 

[8ball]

So look at the system, what can be improved, how are checks done, would any additional rules help etc

Maybe look at what was fucked up first. We know there has been a lot of rubber-stamping this year due to Covid, for example.
We also don't know whether having his guns given back to him was something that was assessed properly in light of the existing rules.

But yeah, I agree about doing stuff better if needs be.

 

[Riklet]

Most gun violence in the UK is with illegal guns. Yes definitely violent nutcases shouldnt be given gun licenses and pump action shotguns... but tbh I think the rules are pretty strict already for most guns.

There seems to be a trend of the police having more guns here now... im just as dubious about that tbh.