The Question of England

[brixtonscot]

Many on the Left , say they are not nationalists but internationalists.

I agree with that sentiment , but does the term inter-nationalist , imply some form of connection between (inter) "nationalists",
or at least - between "nationalities" - or those currently located within existing "nations" ?

Could transnationalist be a more accurate term - over and beyond existing nations & nationalities ?

It can be said that "nations" are an illusion - being formed in the interests of the ruling-class downwards in the imagi-nation of imagined communities.

But national identity can also contribute to a profound sense of (imagined) belonging for many people - many of whom are prepared to kill and die for this perception - which are not so easily dismissed as "illusionary" or "false consciousness" - however "true" those analyses may be.

With growing demands for independence in Scotland , right-wing nationalists in England will have the potential to exploit right-wing sentiment in England around some sense of "Englishness" - and if Scotland does become independent of Westminster rule , The Left in England will have no option but to address operating from within an English context. And Wales is another matter.

In her talk referring to "patriotic patriotism" , LP leadership candidate Rebecca Long Bailey was not clear if she was referring to English or British "patriotism". It is not uncommon among many English people to confuse England and Britain.
John McDonnell , speaking in Edinburgh last year, referred to (current) English parliament at Westminster.
It's not so long ago that the Union Jack was the flag of choice for football fans of the English national team.

Is it not possible to pragmatically address "The Question of England" by acknowledging the existence of a "nation" ( initially at least as a geographic region ) that goes by the name England - and acknowledge working-class histories and cultures developed and experienced within this "nation" called England - WITHOUT being nationalistic or patriotic ?

The Left needs to work in local communities to build a movement from the grass-roots upwards , and then connect and expand regionally , then utilising existing frameworks "nationally" , and then inter-"nationally" ( or transnationally ) and eventually globally , towards a world without borders and nations.

I believe that the Left located in this place that currently goes by the name England - ignores this Question of England at its peril.

 

[Azrael]

Given that the structural conditions that led to Scottish and Welsh nationalism taking a civic and social democratic road aren't present in England -- in short, a vehicle to reject the right-wing politics dominant in a much larger neighbour -- the best hope for a progressive English nationalism appears to be it happening by default when Scotland dissolves the Union. Although if it can be artificially created, this way sounds like it's got as good a chance as any.

 

[brixtonscot]

Thanks for your comment Azrael , Which I don't disagree with in general , except that I deliberately avoided using the term "nationalism" - which has associations of exclusiveness , specialness ( potentially superiority?) -

Is it not possible to pragmatically address "The Question of England" by acknowledging the existence of a "nation" ( initially at least as a geographic region ) that goes by the name England - and acknowledge working-class histories and cultures developed and experienced within this "nation" called England - WITHOUT being nationalistic or patriotic ?

 

[brogdale]

Thanks for your comment Azrael , Which I don't disagree with in general , except that I deliberately avoided using the term "nationalism" - which has associations of exclusiveness , specialness ( potentially superiority?) -

Is it not possible to pragmatically address "The Question of England" by acknowledging the existence of a "nation" ( initially at least as a geographic region ) that goes by the name England - and acknowledge working-class histories and cultures developed and experienced within this "nation" called England - WITHOUT being nationalistic or patriotic ?

Historians certainly think the latter possible; Edward Palmer Thompson being an obvious exponent.
I'm a little confused by this notion of the 'question of England'.
Seems to be a danger of confusing a (superstructural) question of political determination with the socio-economic (base) conditions of class heritage.

 

[butchersapron]

What does that mean?

 

[brogdale]

What does that mean?

Not entirely sure what OP means by 'English question', but I think it might relate to political determination (having a devolved/independent) legislature?

 

[butchersapron]

Not entirely sure what OP means by 'English question', but I think it might relate to political determination (having a devolved/independent) legislature?

You didn't mean little idiot robots doing what they're told then?

 

[brogdale]

You didn't mean little idiot robots doing what they're told then?

no

 

[butchersapron]

But they're not doing what they should?

 

[brogdale]

Still not sure what the "question of England" is.

 

[A380]

Still not sure what the "question of England" is.

‘What do they know of England who only England know?’

 

[Azrael]

Thanks for your comment Azrael , Which I don't disagree with in general , except that I deliberately avoided using the term "nationalism" - which has associations of exclusiveness , specialness ( potentially superiority?) -

Is it not possible to pragmatically address "The Question of England" by acknowledging the existence of a "nation" ( initially at least as a geographic region ) that goes by the name England - and acknowledge working-class histories and cultures developed and experienced within this "nation" called England - WITHOUT being nationalistic or patriotic ?

Thanks for highlighting the issue with "nationalism" (and sorry for not making the distinction clearer!). Unfortunate that it's how Welsh and Scottish independence movements are commonly referred to, but agree that it's not the best term. Given the respective names, Plaid are gonna find it easier to shake off than the SNP.

 

[brixtonscot]

Not entirely sure what OP means by 'English question', but I think it might relate to political determination (having a devolved/independent) legislature?

What I mean are there specific social/cultural/political experiences that could be related to being located within the "nation" of England ? And if there is , could the Left located in England re-orientate the context in which they operate
ie. from a British context to a English context ?

One possible wee example......Since the recent (British) General Election there has been some commentary on "The North" - in a British context , the north is Inverness or Thurso.
What these commentators really mean is the north of England - which is placing the comments in an English context - but that is unspoken , and probably un-intended.

I'd reiterate that I think local activism should be a priority for the Left - but at some stage does it need to engage with existing national and inter-national dimensions - with an eventual aim of dismantling borders and nations.

 

[Celyn]

It might be useful if things like television news could manage to say what they mean. The supposed "national" (UK) news is far too fond of saying that the Health Secretary or the Education Sec. Or Justice Sec. said this or that when actually they have in mind the one for England.

 

[Arbeter Fraynd]

Alex Niven's recent book 'new model island' is interesting on this sort of thing, very readable too. I didn't agree with all of it, but definitely thought-provoking

 

[brogdale]

What I mean are there specific social/cultural/political experiences that could be related to being located within the "nation" of England ? And if there is , could the Left located in England re-orientate the context in which they operate
ie. from a British context to a English context ?

One possible wee example......Since the recent (British) General Election there has been some commentary on "The North" - in a British context , the north is Inverness or Thurso.
What these commentators really mean is the north of England - which is placing the comments in an English context - but that is unspoken , and probably un-intended.

I'd reiterate that I think local activism should be a priority for the Left - but at some stage does it need to engage with existing national and inter-national dimensions - with an eventual aim of dismantling borders and nations.

I get how it must be irritating for folk in NI, Wales & Scotland that the media is English-centric, but I thought that you were making a point about how the left/LP needed to deal with the post-devolution notion of England?
Not being arsey, but I really don't what is meant by 'the English question' in this context. If your question is prompted by the reported antipathy of the 'Northern working class town' vote towards the internationalism of the Corbyn-led LP, I didn't see that as a distinctly English condition. I heard it reported that people on the doorstep regarded Corbyn et al as lacking in respect for the UK's armed forces, the UK's right to withdraw from the supra-state, the UK's independent nuclear deterrent, the UK Royal Family and the UK's geopolitical/foreign policy interests etc.

Not convinced that the left/LP need to obsess about England, tbh. In a sense, you'd think that it night be more problematic for the vermin; an essentially English party describing itself as a Unionist party?

 

[brixtonscot]

Not convinced that the left/LP need to obsess about England, tbh. In a sense, you'd think that it night be more problematic for the vermin; an essentially English party describing itself as a Unionist party?

I'm not suggesting the Left need to obsess about England at all. Just to consider re-configuring one of the frameworks that they are operating within from a British context to an English Context.

Paradoxically , I think the hypocritical , unprincipled Right find that shift easier - eg. from "Make Britain Great Again" to "Make England Great Again" - already attempted with EDL.

A shift by the Left would ideally be quite different - a matter-of-fact , non-chauvinistic recognition of operating within a context of England - ie. No "progressive patriotism"

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Paradoxically , I think the hypocritical , unprincipled Right find that shift easier - eg. from "Make Britain Great Again" to "Make England Great Again" - already attempted with EDL.

Or the English Democrats. Remember them?

 

[brixtonscot]

Alex Niven's recent book 'new model island' is interesting on this sort of thing, very readable too. I didn't agree with all of it, but definitely thought-provoking

Yes , it does look interesting. I haven't read it yet , but am intending to. Here is review from Bella Caledonia

England’s Dreaming

Alex Niven [author of New Model Island] has sparked some debate with his excellent extended essay on the nature of English identity and the prospects for the Union (‘Englishness’ was never enough t…

bellacaledonia.org.uk

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm not suggesting the Left need to obsess about England at all. Just to consider re-configuring one of the frameworks that they are operating within from a British context to an English Context.

Paradoxically , I think the hypocritical , unprincipled Right find that shift easier - eg. from "Make Britain Great Again" to "Make England Great Again" - already attempted with EDL.

A shift by the Left would ideally be quite different - a matter-of-fact , non-chauvinistic recognition of operating within a context of England - ie. No "progressive patriotism"

What Left are you taking about? Do you mean Labour? Do you mean the socialist left?

Like brogdale I'm not at all clear what you are trying to say, beyond the fact that "local activism" should be a priority.

 

[brogdale]

I'm not suggesting the Left need to obsess about England at all. Just to consider re-configuring one of the frameworks that they are operating within from a British context to an English Context.

OK, but what does re-configuring one of the frameworks that they are operating within actually mean? I'm sorry but that sounds uncomfortably like managerial speak for some nationalistic stance.

If you are talking about the LP, I'm still very unclear why a UK-wide democratic socialist party should want to present as an English
party.

 

[inva]

The Left needs to work in local communities to build a movement from the grass-roots upwards , and then connect and expand regionally , then utilising existing frameworks "nationally" , and then inter-"nationally" ( or transnationally ) and eventually globally , towards a world without borders and nations.

Is this basically saying that you want the Labour Party to take control of community campaigns?

 

[brixtonscot]

What Left are you taking about? Do you mean Labour? Do you mean the socialist left?

Like brogdale I'm not at all clear what you are trying to say, beyond the fact that "local activism" should be a priority.

I'm not talking about any existing Left organisation/s in particular. I doubt if there's any credible/viable Left organisations existing at present in either British or English context.
Im not obsessed about establishing a "national" political context - but while "nations" exist for the foreseeable future , "national" context could have some relevance.
It could include some reconfigured elements of the Labour Party, which if Scotland became independent it would presumably have to reconfigure itself in some way.
What I'm trying to get at is also to do with outlook , perspective , context etc
As I said before , local activism should be a priority , and then from that connecting and expanding regionally.
At some stage would it become necessary to engage wider with existing "national" and inter-national frameworks and perspectives ?

 

[brixtonscot]

OK, but what does re-configuring one of the frameworks that they are operating within actually mean? I'm sorry but that sounds uncomfortably like managerial speak for some nationalistic stance.

One of the frameworks that many , not all , Left organisations operate within is the institutions and structures of the nation-state - if only by being in opposition to them.

I appreciate there are bigger political questions associated with the nature & structure of nations , states & nation-states - and some may have a perspective of not recognising or accepting any of them - and I wouldn't disagree in principle.
But in practice how do we get to having no nations or states ?

 

[brixtonscot]

Is this basically saying that you want the Labour Party to take control of community campaigns?

No, No, No
Ideally it would be some new form of organisation/movement which developed out of grass-roots local campaigns

 

[brogdale]

One of the frameworks that many , not all , Left organisations operate within is the institutions and structures of the nation-state - if only by being in opposition to them.

I appreciate there are bigger political questions associated with the nature & structure of nations , states & nation-states - and some may have a perspective of not recognising or accepting any of them - and I wouldn't disagree in principle.
But in practice how do we get to having no nations or states ?

England is not a nation-state.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm not talking about any existing Left organisation/s in particular. I doubt if there's any credible/viable Left organisations existing at present in either British or English context.

OK but you still must have some idea about what you mean by left.
Different political organisations are going to have different views on England (and Scotland, Wales, Ireland) as a nation, the Labour Party will not, cannot, have the same views as anarchists. If by left you mean socialist then it might be just possible to come to some sort of consistent viewpoint but if left is being used in a wider sense then any attempt to come to some sort of "question of England" is doomed to failure.

As I said before , local activism should be a priority , and then from that connecting and expanding regionally.
At some stage would it become necessary to engage wider with existing "national" and inter-national frameworks and perspectives ?

What does this mean in practice. If the LP is included in the left then how does this work? I mean there's a argument for more local organising in the LP but I think the idea that the LP should not "engage ... with existing "national" and inter-national frameworks and perspectives" is dead in the water.

But in practice how do we get to having no nations or states ?

Related to brogdale's claim below are these the same thing in your view?

England is not a nation-state.

Because the state is the UK?

 

[danny la rouge]

are these the same thing in your view?

I’m about to go out, but it’s important not to get confused by the terminology. I don’t support states or nationalism. But what do we mean by “nation” and “country”? We’re culture bearers. It’s not possible to live nowhere, speak no language, have no culture. But it is possible to have no power structures.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

In the event of of a politically broken up island I think various types of Englishness would emerge. One would be a sordid rightist cliche. But there could be another of Diggers, Levellers and Common Wealth (not the Commonwealth!)

 

[brogdale]

Time to blow the dust off this?

Commonwealth of Britain Bill - Wikipedia