The most working-class anarchist group is...

[LLETSA]

No no, not at all. Just a pattern I have noticed from your posts, ans those of butchersapron, ernestotwatface, and Chuck Norris.

Wouldn't let it all bother you. Worse things happen in this world of ours.

 

[montevideo]

Guess what? I read the website before you and it doesn't come across a a teenage iwca with added humour , it comes across as " Its that time of year again, when your Council goes on a wild vindictive anti-social rampage against graffiti artists, flyposters, skateboarders and those evil parasites - the homeless." which is its banner headline on all the pages.

Yes, they are issuing badges that say "yuppie invasion tosser" but the issue in Manchester is not that the working class are being moved out (there is no working class to move out in the first place cos noone lived there) but that huge estates remain unregenerated outside the city centre, with the exception of Hulme .

Hosting the Commonwealth Games, applying to be the city of culture, building a 24 hour city centre culture, hosting the Labour party conference has been a pleasent diversion from the reality of these estates many of them riddled with crime ,asb, drug dealing with few transport links, loads of failing schools, and some of the worst health rates in England.

Instead these people ( and if they are not some member of the extended anarchist family what are they?) focus on car pollution and the right to skateboard and graffiti.

Teenage? yes. At the cutting point of working class action? No.

but in your original post you mentioned 'the anarchists' 4 times as those who were responsible. Where did that come from?

 

[LLETSA]

Thomas, I see you as an ally, and Lletsa for that matter.
(and Lletsa, having admitted to not having spoken to another human being about anarchism for 15 years, perhaps you aren't exactly qualified to tell us what we think), you might have a little more restrained approach until you can separate out those you see as allies from those you see as harmful.

Nowhere did I try to 'tell you what you think'; simply, I just gave an opinion about anarchism being invisible to the public at large. I wasn't even trying to push any kind of 'great alternative' to anarchism. This leads me onto the point about my lack of conversation about anarchism. I don't normally socialise with politicos. Those that I do socialise with never raise the subject of anarchism simply because never encountering anarchists or hearing anything at all about anarchism, it doesn't even register with them. This must apply to 99.9% of people, so I can't see why to point it out has caused such defensive -and sometimes verbally aggressive- responses.

 

[Thumper Browne]

As Ali G said, "I has heard all the arguments. I don't undertand any of dem. But I is really up for a ruck wid de police."

As Thumper B said "I has heard all the arguments. I understand dem. And I is really up for a ruck wid de police." What's your point?

Where does it go on, this 'rucking with the cops' that you keep referring to?

There were some small skirmishes on couple of occaisions outside USAF Fairford. As well as some rough stuff near Trafalgar square one Mayday recently passed. What do you do, just let the pig hit you or your muckers? Are you a pacifist?

And what are these 'short term rewards'

Adrenaline

it's supposed to lead to?

Feeling alive

You acknowledge that it 'undermines real anarchic progress' (a strange term that needs explaining.)

I put progress in inverted commas to signify I was unsure about the write word to use but was still keen to respond.

So it's a bit like chasing your tail then?

Arguing with you, yes, very much so.

 

[kropotkin]

Lletsa, I'm not sure whether you yourself beleive what you are writing. Since you arrived on this board, I have seen several (and been personally involved in some) threads where you are extremely hostile to anarchists- charicaturing their politics without finding out what they actually think. It may suit you to restrict my comment to this particular thread (where I think you have been derogatory and needlessly combative), but your posting history and board-presence so far confirms what I have said.

 

[LLETSA]

Sadly I've never seen any action by any socialist/IWCA-esq/anarchist group in the places I grew up (well, place, Herefordshire).

Why do you continually choose to bring up irrelevant points? Why so defensive all the time? The IWCA is less than ten years old and was launched in an atmosphere where a rapidly retreating left (and anarchist movement for that matter) seems to wish to see out its natural life going through the same motions as if there hasn't been an ongoing crisis in progressive politics for at least two decades now (intensified drastically by the demise of Communism.) It does, however, need to be given credit for trying to operate differently and prioritising approaching unorganised working class people directly.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

For what?

Has anyone ever mentioned to you that you can be extremely hard work?

I asked you a question and for the very first time you gave a full and honest reply so I was acknowledging this.

 

[kropotkin]

What the fuck is this? How can you criticise others for what yopu yourself are doing in spades?

Ludd comments that he hasn't seen ANY activity form either socialist/IWCA or anarchist groups in his area, entirely relevently to another post on the same topic, and you respond with the above defensive post- starting with a criticism of his defensiveness.

Get the bloody log out of your own eye.

 

[LLETSA]

Life's a riot.

Yes I was being a bit of a cock but there is no way I am ever gonna publicly condem a confrontation with the state or the pigs or anyone who represents it, supports it or gives it implicit support. Why should I? The state and its machinery I reject almost entirely and I will always try to show the confrontation in its true light.

I also acknowledge that much of my attitude is based in adrenaline junkiedom and I do find better outlets for it. I've never really been involved in a proper riot

In contrast the number one ambition of nearly every working class person is to be involved in a riot.

This is fantasy kid's stuff.

In countries where rioting and street confronatation are the norm, at least for some of the time, the vast majority of people join in out of sheer desperation, not 'adrenaline junkiedom.'

By pointing this out I am 'giving the state and its machinery implicit support.'

 

[Herbert Read]

It does, however, need to be given credit for trying to operate differently and prioritising approaching unorganised working class people directly.

At last concessions youve changed LLETSA you will be down the social centre next talking about the tyranny of structurelessness

 

[montevideo]

In contrast the number one ambition of nearly every working class person is to be involved in a riot.

This is fantasy kid's stuff.

In countries where rioting and street confronatation are the norm, at least for some of the time, the vast majority of people join in out of sheer desperation, not 'adrenaline junkiedom.'

By pointing this out I am 'giving the state and its machinery implicit support.'

which countries? How many riots have you been in?

 

[LLETSA]

I've just had me dinner and the adrenaline's pumping

As Thumper B said "I has heard all the arguments. I understand dem. And I is really up for a ruck wid de police." What's your point?

Like I said, I is up for a ruck wid de police. Lead on.

 

[Herbert Read]

could not get link going

 

[Chuck Wilson]

but in your original post you mentioned 'the anarchists' 4 times as those who were responsible. Where did that come from?

Who else ,montevideo who else? We have had posts up here over the year that have suggested that we underestimate anarchist activity because anarchists don't claim responsibility for their activity and that is one of the reasons why anarchism hasn't a bigger audience.

If you are saying this is nothing to do with anarchism fine but I guess some anarchists would disgaree.

 

[Thumper Browne]

In contrast the number one ambition of nearly every working class person is to be involved in a riot.

No it isn't, the number one ambition for nearly every working class person should be/prolly is if you aked em the right questions, to be at liberty to realise the full value of their work. But its how we get from here to there that raises the question of state violence and violence used to counter act it.

This is fantasy kid's stuff.

No it isn't its hard historical fact. Were the French and Russian Revolutions kids fantasies?

In countries where rioting and street confronatation are the norm, at least for some of the time, the vast majority of people join in out of sheer desperation, not 'adrenaline junkiedom.'

Its all grey, there'll be both deperados and andrenaline freaks and I bet it's the adrenaline freaks who give the desperados the boost they need.

By pointing this out I am 'giving the state and its machinery implicit support.'

You haven't really pointed anything out, have you? So no.

 

[The Black Hand]

Many TV appearances? And so? The same could be said for Les Dennis. I think you'd find that those TV appearances confirmed you in the eyes of the audience as what you were already perceived as (through your own efforts) by the tiny numbers who already knew of you - a novelty act.

THIS IS GIBBERISH...

In my experience the small number of people who ever came across it (to them Class War was merely stickers on a lamp post or graffiti on a wall) thought that Class War material was sometimes funny, and compared to the po-faced left it probably was. Nobody outside your own circle ever took it seriously as any kind of guide to action, however.


Durrr, whoever said a sticker could be a guide to action dimwit? As I have already said class consciousness is a process, there are no QUICK FIxes and any know it all lefties who pretend they have an answer ARE LIARS... and your last sentence above is complete bollox, Class War was used as a symbol of resistance for many, note the way that people gravitated to the CLass War contingent on the miners huge demo in autumn 1992, and likewise during the poll tax anniversary march... that's not including stickers that were and are being put in many provocative places such as police cars, on prison wings, and on vandalised property during riots etc

The whole approach Class War used to take towards the working class was fundamentally patronising (this was to some extent true of most anarchist groups I used to come across). To assume that most working people share your carefully cultivated 'rebel' poses and took seriously the juvenile 'fuck this, fuck that, fuck the other' tone of your propaganda can be described as nothing else.

AND FUCK YOU But seriously, Class War circulation grew in prisons approx 2000% (about a dozen to over 200) in one year of prison organising in the mid 1990s... a class composition that spits on you and yours and proves that working class people liked Class War... It is a take on working class people and their culture that you obviously have no comprehension nor knowledge of.

'Starbucks Fuck Off'? Is that the sound of empires tumbling? Oh no, it's just next door putting the bin out.

Do you think working people are fucking daft or what?

No - i think you are an arsehole.

 

[montevideo]

Who else ,montevideo who else? We have had posts up here over the year that have suggested that we underestimate anarchist activity because anarchists don't claim responsibility for their activity and that is one of the reasons why anarchism hasn't a bigger audience.

If you are saying this is nothing to do with anarchism fine but I guess some anarchists would disgaree.

"some anarchists have grabbed the headlines

but some anrchists are opposing it

the MEN is pro the Council on asb and obviously isn't going to give the anarchists fair representation

the anarchists are issuing badges"

now simply, what information do you have to assert that this group is an anarchist one? Doesn't concern me if they are or not, i just want to know how you know they are anarchists?

 

[Thumper Browne]

Like I said, I is up for a ruck wid de police. Lead on.

No you aren't, nor will I lead anyone anywhere.

 

[swarthy thug]

Those who quote film usually have a limited life style

Its affective thou,better that than some rotten corpse of a east european with a beard

 

[charlie mowbray]

Why do you continually choose to bring up irrelevant points? Why so defensive all the time? The IWCA is less than ten years old and was launched in an atmosphere where a rapidly retreating left (and anarchist movement for that matter) seems to wish to see out its natural life going through the same motions as if there hasn't been an ongoing crisis in progressive politics for at least two decades now (intensified drastically by the demise of Communism.) It does, however, need to be given credit for trying to operate differently and prioritising approaching unorganised working class people directly.

Defensive? If you're attacked, you fight back. But you want us to roll over on our backs stick our legs in the air and admit that of course you're right.

 

[charlie mowbray]

"some anarchists have grabbed the headlines

but some anrchists are opposing it

the MEN is pro the Council on asb and obviously isn't going to give the anarchists fair representation

the anarchists are issuing badges"

now simply, what information do you have to assert that this group is an anarchist one? Doesn't concern me if they are or not, i just want to know how you know they are anarchists?

He doesn't , he's just using it as a stick to beat us with

 

[LLETSA]

Lletsa, I'm not sure whether you yourself beleive what you are writing. Since you arrived on this board, I have seen several (and been personally involved in some) threads where you are extremely hostile to anarchists- charicaturing their politics without finding out what they actually think. It may suit you to restrict my comment to this particular thread (where I think you have been derogatory and needlessly combative), but your posting history and board-presence so far confirms what I have said.

Actually there was one thread - the Shoplifting as Revolutionary Act-cum-Interesting Lifestyle Option one. Which, as any sane person reading the thread would agree, contained some imbecile, out-to-lunch commentary, including from people who I hope you would be ashamed to see call themselves anarchists. It did, however, contain some very relevant arguments. As does this one. It's hard to believe how fragile is the political confidence of some of the anarchists.

I know I keep saying it, but go back to my original post in this thread and see that I wasn't being at all derogatory. The derogatory stuff came from the anarchos and almost immediately - including throwing out stuff about the IWCA, whom I never even mentioned. I even pointed this out again in my reply to you of just a few minutes ago.

And anyway, boards like this are dull as dishwater without a few insults and barbed comment being tossed around....

 

[charlie mowbray]

"Tossed" ? Yes, a patronising tosser should know

 

[LLETSA]

No it isn't its hard historical fact. Were the French and Russian Revolutions kids fantasies?

Ah this is a different story - I never realised you'd been involved in the contemporary equivalents of the French and Russian revoultions.

Respect brother! (Slaps open palm on Thumper's.)

 

[LLETSA]

which countries? How many riots have you been in?

Various impoverished Third World countries run by tyrannies for instance. Bit of a daft question.

No, like Thumper, I've never been involved in a full-scale riot (sob.) Although I was present a couple of times when the police kicked off during the miners' strike and at Wapping once.

With regard to the kind of thing that you might have in mind, however, like most working class people, I regard getting twatted in pointless unwinnable skirmishes with the cops as a fucking mug's game.

 

[Thumper Browne]

Ah this is a different story - I never realised you'd been involved in the contemporary equivalents of the French and Russian revoultions.

Respect brother! (Slaps open palm on Thumper's.)

He-he, I just knew you were gonna come back with something like that. Patronising twat that you are.

Please outline, in your own words, the mechanics of social revolution?

 

[General Ludd]

I know I keep saying it, but go back to my original post in this thread and see that I wasn't being at all derogatory.

Claiming that anarchists don't want anarchist to be heard of was derogatory, or at least you should have realised that it would be perceived that way by people who put a lot of effort into making anarchism better known, and that was what kicked this 10 page argument off way back in post 76.

 

[swarthy thug]

Various impoverished Third World countries run by tyrannies for instance. Bit of a daft question.

No, like Thumper, I've never been involved in a full-scale riot (sob.) Although I was present when the police kicked off during the miners' strike and at Wapping once.

Like most working class people, though, I regard getting twatted in pointless unwinnable skirmishes with the cops as a fucking mug's game.

It reminds of a story a mate of mine about tommy steele the cockney crooner,supposingly he used to pay strapping ex plods to dress up as a cops, knock on his door and then assult him verbally physically and sexually.He got big kicks out of it.

Thumper do you want me to gets his number?.

 

[blamblam]

Well doesn't this thread suck the balls.

Some people are presenting (knowingly or not) a charicature of an anarchist position, some people are playing up to the charicature, it just all sucks really.

Anyhoo I just thought this was hilarious:

If however i am cleaning up my estate & handing out leaflets then thumper browne is one person i would be happy to have by my side.

Are you pretending to live on estate now?
Just brilliant!

 

[Thumper Browne]

Like most working class people, though, I regard getting twatted in pointless unwinnable skirmishes with the cops as a fucking mug's game.

Like most working class people I don't enjoy getting twatted by the pigs either, that's why the adrenaline fix is sooooo good, cos I'm fucking scared shitless. The only reason I have found myself getting into an unwinnable situation with the cops in usually to defend a friend or the principle on which I am protesting. I'm prepared to lose many skirmishes with the long term view of exposing state violence, bit of pain now for, hopefully, future gains.