the long-awaited 'why the telegraph is going downhill' thread

[ViolentPanda]

So you're dismissing it without having read it?

If you've ever read Hannan's published output you should, if you have any critical faculties, have noticed that he has a fondness for hyperbole, an addiction to "grand narrative" generalised historicising, and a very poor grasp of detail; of critique and of research. He's like Paul "Spank Me" Johnson without the quasi-redeeming quality of actually being able to write a decently-structured sentence.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I do have a copy of his book, 'The Plan'. It's relegated to bath-time reading - that is, it doesn't matter if I nod off and it falls in.

What 'plan' does he have in mind, exactly?

 

[nino_savatte]

Perhaps reading it might at least make you better informed.

Unlikely. I'm actually better informed than Hannan, who is only capable of viewing the concept of 'freedom' (an abstract noun) through the lens of his class privilege.

They didn't need addressing.

Oh, the unbelievable arrogance. Yet you told me that I should read Hannan's book.

I've liked a couple of his speeches in the EU parliament. But with regard to his writing, I like to read multiple viewpoints to better learn and understand them. I've never seen the point in wearing blinkers or speaking in an echo gallery. I do have a copy of his book, 'The Plan'. It's relegated to bath-time reading - that is, it doesn't matter if I nod off and it falls in.

I get the feeling that you're not being entirely honest with me. I read The Plan too, with the intention of critiquing it. It's an unbelievably poorly thought-out vision for the country and is based entirely on suppositions and class bigotry.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Unlikely. I'm actually better informed than Hannan, who is only capable of viewing the concept of 'freedom' (an abstract noun) through the lens of his class privilege.



Oh, the unbelievable arrogance. Yet you told me that I should read Hannan's book.



I get the feeling that you're not being entirely honest with me. I read The Plan too, with the intention of critiquing it. It's an unbelievably poorly thought-out vision for the country and is based entirely on suppositions and class bigotry.

I too have read it (far more amusing than a copy of "The Beano"!), hence my comment about "....hyperbole, an addiction to 'grand narrative' generalised historicising, and a very poor grasp of detail; of critique and of research".

 

[nino_savatte]

I too have read it (far more amusing than a copy of "The Beano"!), hence my comment about "....hyperbole, an addiction to 'grand narrative' generalised historicising, and a very poor grasp of detail; of critique and of research".

I like the way Hannan and Carswell produce a graph to support their assertions in the first chapter, yet the graph itself wasn't cited. Typical arrogant right-wingers.

 

[stavros]

Like its fellow tabloids, the Maily Telegraph has Nigella and her two friends prominent on the cover today.

 

[youngian]

"The war against slavery" sounds mighty grand and effective but the southern US states practised Jim Crow laws. The "Glorious Revolution" was a palace coup and the "English Civil War" was hijacked by Cromwell, whose inept son (whom most people ignore) couldn't hold on to power and ceded it back to the monarchy. And the Magna Carta? Freedom for the barons.

More guff from Hannan

Jefferson immortally promised his countrymen ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’. By contrast, the EU’s Charter of Fundamental Freedoms guarantees the right to strike action, free healthcare and affordable housing.

Thats right Dan, America's crippling health costs, zero hour contracts and mass evictions have produced millions of smiling happy American faces.

Apart from the right to keep slaves and automatic weapons the ECHR also contains all the individual rights Jefferson laid down. Except Hannan and his party doesn't really like those rights very much when they are not straight male white middle class property owners using them in Strasbourg or the British courts.

He should have been proud the Labour government had enshrined these Jeffersonian constitutional rights in British law through the HRA. But he seems to hate Britain. Strangely Hannan and other Tory crackpots like Theresa May want to abolish this Jeffersonian culture of constitutional protection of citizens in favour of executive authoritarianism.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...abours-Human-Rights-Act-says-Theresa-May.html

I used to describe Hannan as an eccentric but a dangerous lunatic is nearer to the truth.

 

[Quartz]

If you've ever read Hannan's published output you should, if you have any critical faculties, have noticed that he has a fondness for hyperbole, an addiction to "grand narrative" generalised historicising, and a very poor grasp of detail; of critique and of research.

Ever heard of the phrase, 'Time spent in reconnaissance is time well spent'? Understand this: he has a right to be wrong. But to debate him, we need to know him.

The big problem with Libertarianism in general and thus with Hannan's localism is that while everything will go swimmingly while all is well, things fall apart when disaster strikes. We can see this most clearly with America's lack of socialised medicine: one of if not the most common cause of bankruptcy there is medical expenses. Similarly one can look to Fukushima and the tsunami: could the locals really have coped without state help? Of course not.

Unlikely. I'm actually better informed than Hannan,

That's an immensely arrogant statement.

I get the feeling that you're not being entirely honest with me.

It's your right to be wrong. And I'm not biting.

 

[nino_savatte]

That's an immensely arrogant statement.



It's your right to be wrong. And I'm not biting.

1. Hardly. Hannan's the arrogant one (like you).
2. You're not "biting" because you've got no reply.

I wonder why you're so keen defend a lunatic like Hannan? Is it hero-worship? Is it because he speaks in a posh accent and uses a lot of florid language? Is that what you find convincing?

What I find so odd is the way you tell me that I have no right to comment because I haven't read his book. I'm actually very well-informed when it comes to Hannan. Perhaps you need to take off the rose-tinted specs and think critically.

 

[nino_savatte]

So you're dismissing it without having read it?

You clearly didn't read his blog and leapt straight to his defence. What are you trying to hide?

 

[Quartz]

1. Hardly. Hannan's the arrogant one (like you).
2. You're not "biting" because you've got no reply.

No, you were and are trolling and I am not going to rise to the bait.

I wonder why you're so keen defend a lunatic like Hannan?

I believe in freedom of speech. That means freedom of speech for everyone. It doesn't mean I like what they say, but I defend their right to say it. No matter how loathsome or stupid, I want these opinions out in the open.

 

[nino_savatte]

No, you were and are trolling and I am not going to rise to the bait.



I believe in freedom of speech. That means freedom of speech for everyone. It doesn't mean I like what they say, but I defend their right to say it. No matter how loathsome or stupid, I want these opinions out in the open.

I'm not "trolling" and you only say that because you have no counter-argument.

Why do you think Hannan has more right to comment on 'freedom' than anyone else? Moreover, why do you accept his mediated views on 'freedom'?

 

[Quartz]

I'm not "trolling" and you only say that because you have no counter-argument.

Let's see: you accuse me of being arrogant, and you call me a liar in a roundabout way. Yes, you're trolling and we're done.

 

[nino_savatte]

Let's see: you accuse me of being arrogant, and you call me a liar in a roundabout way. Yes, you're trolling and we're done.

You've got a real bee in your bonnet about this and I suspect it's because you're not being entirely honest about Hannan or your own political position. Either way, accusing me of "trolling" shows that you are unable to produce a counter-argument.

Now you take your bat and ball and storm off the pitch. Pathetic.

Oh and you were the one who accused me of being "arrogant" because I wouldn't accept Hannan's dubious views on freedom without first reading his book.

 

[nino_savatte]

More guff from Hannan


Thats right Dan, America's crippling health costs, zero hour contracts and mass evictions have produced millions of smiling happy American faces.

Apart from the right to keep slaves and automatic weapons the ECHR also contains all the individual rights Jefferson laid down. Except Hannan and his party doesn't really like those rights very much when they are not straight male white middle class property owners using them in Strasbourg or the British courts.

He should have been proud the Labour government had enshrined these Jeffersonian constitutional rights in British law through the HRA. But he seems to hate Britain. Strangely Hannan and other Tory crackpots like Theresa May want to abolish this Jeffersonian culture of constitutional protection of citizens in favour of executive authoritarianism.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...abours-Human-Rights-Act-says-Theresa-May.html

I used to describe Hannan as an eccentric but a dangerous lunatic is nearer to the truth.

Hannan's concept of freedom is the enslavement of those who don't have the same material wealth as him or his mates.

His Americophilia is embarrassing. If he's so in love with the USA, why doesn't he bugger off there and run for congress as a Tea Party chimp?

 

[nino_savatte]

Here's a paragraph from p70 of The Plan. I wanted to find the bit where they use the phrase "teaching proper history" but this is just as wilfully ignorant.

The phrase ‘new world order’ did not originate with the Americans, however.
It had been reintroduced into political discourse by the outgoing Soviet
president, Mikhail Gorbachev, who rekindled the old trotskyite dream of world
government by calling for global governance and a unification of the world
economy. Soon, the Left-wing and globalist origins of the ‘new world order’
project became clear: institutions proliferated at international level pursuing
an overtly anti-conservative agenda and transferring ever more power away
from ordinary people into obscure and unaccountable international
institutions.

Since when was Gorbachev a "trotskyite"?

 

[butchersapron]

Are you sure that's not from Brevik's 'manifesto'? Bonkers bruno.

 

[nino_savatte]

Are you sure that's not from Brevik's 'manifesto'? Bonkers bruno.

I had to do a double take but, yeah, Hannan shows us he's little different to other headbangers.

 

[youngian]

I had to do a double take but, yeah, Hannan shows us he's little different to other headbangers.

Christ on a bendy bus that is full blown swivel eyed far right internet stuff used by a chimps tea party of nutters including David Icke, libertarian nationalists and Fascists. And also has more than a whiff of the Zionist World Government rhetoric. I see another Tory swivel eyed loon in chief Carswell had a hand in that one as well.

New world order is an opaque term that was popular in the 90s among big picture statesmen searching for a rational institutional model of doing business in international relations following the Cold War bipolar balance of terror.

What the likes of Hannan are really arguing is a return to the nation state chaos and shifting alliance systems that always led to misery on an unimaginable scale.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

wtf? Didn't realise the unpleasant prick was also a total loon.

 

[Gingerman]

A perfect columnist for the insane loonhouse that is the Torygraph comment section.....

 

[nino_savatte]

He's just been on Radio 4 plugging his book, which claims that Anglo-Saxons 'invented' freedom.

 

[youngian]

How much virtually unchallenged airtime has the 'lefty' BBC now given Hannan plugging his lightweight ramblings?

 

[butchersapron]

Telegraph writer openly endorsing birther loon Jerome Corsi.

 

[Idris2002]

Telegraph writer openly endorsing birther loon Jerome Corsi.

From the comments:

B.H. Obama ll is a total fraud. He is not the son of a 'goat herder' from Kenya.

Has Obama ever claimed this? AFAIK, his Da was part of the emerging African elite from the last days of UK colonialism. Last week, I had the opportunity to view one of the few remaining copies of the book he wrote as advice to Luo peasant farmers "Wise Ways of Farming". "This is not the work of a goat herder", I said, channelling Tommy Lee Jones in Under Siege.

 

[Idris2002]

Oh, that comments thread is mint. They're recycling the claim that BHO's real Da was none other than the great Malcolm X himself. . .

Which is odd given that BHO's mum worked for a known CIA front.

Like many other anthropologists of her generation.

E2A:
I googled the CIA thing, and it seems to be exclusively on conspiraloon sites. The New York Times did say this, though:

Mr. Obama lived in Jakarta with his mother and stepfather, Lolo Soetoro, from 1967 to 1971, arriving when he was 6 and leaving when he was 10. But his mother spent many more years here, working as a consultant for the United States Agency for International Development, then as a Ford Foundation program officer in Jakarta specializing in women’s work, and later with Indonesia’s oldest bank, where she set up what has been described as the world’s largest sustainable microfinance program.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/...-presidents-mother/?ref=stanleyanndunham&_r=0


Ford Foundation, eh? USAID, you say? Hmmmm. . . .

 

[nino_savatte]

Oh, that comments thread is mint. They're recycling the claim that BHO's real Da was none other than the great Malcolm X himself. . .

Which is odd given that BHO's mum worked for a known CIA front.

Like many other anthropologists of her generation.

E2A:
I googled the CIA thing, and it seems to be exclusively on conspiraloon sites. The New York Times did say this, though:



http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/...-presidents-mother/?ref=stanleyanndunham&_r=0


Ford Foundation, eh? USAID, you say? Hmmmm. . . .

Have you seen that cunt's blog?

The survival of America and this great Republic will not be found in the empty rhetoric of political 'sing song' given us by the likes of President B.H. Obama or Hillary 'my daughter and I were under fire in Bosnia' Clinton, or any current RINO pretender. We are currently on the edge of a Civil War between the races precisely because President B.H. Obama has so divided this nation along the lines of race and personal responsibility that the freedoms so long ago won through blood, sweat, and tears, is fast coming to an inglorious end. Unless actions are taken by concerned Patriots the collapse into complete socialism will be upon us.
http://freedomfiles.blogspot.co.uk/

I know nationalism is nuts but Americans go over the top with it.

 

[Idris2002]

Have you seen that cunt's blog?


I know nationalism is nuts but Americans go over the top with it.

An older colleague of mine has expressed the view that the kind of rhetoric you see in the US these days is what you expect to find in countries on the verge of civil war. I wonder. . .

 

[nino_savatte]

An older colleague of mine has expressed the view that the kind of rhetoric you see in the US these days is what you expect to find in countries on the verge of civil war. I wonder. . .

Thing is, we're seeing it in this country too. If you look at any Telegraph blog on which immigration is the topic, you expect to see the usual suspects repeating the usual mush about 'race replacement' and 'genocide'. Then you get dangerous idiots like Bozza claiming that poor people are less intelligent than lazy toffs.

 

[The Pale King]

Yeah the Telegraph comments section is a fucking sewer, a swamp. No matter the article you get reams of posts ranting about 'miscegenation' and the extermination of 'white Christian culture' etc. To the extent that there are a number of topics which they simply don't open comments for, as they know what will follow, and I guess it's not the best look for attracting advertisers.

Johnson' comments are very sinister. The effort to naturalise massive inequality. The attempt to allot social worth / desert. Neo-Feudalism here we come! Actually, who am I kidding? Neo-Feudalism here we are