The line between mental illness and personality

[scifisam]

My daughter has been diagnosed with autism, but not severe; forty years ago, I think she would just have been regarded as a bit odd, not good at talking to people, etc. It's a personality trait which has more of an impact on her interactions with the world than most other personality traits do. Giving it a name helps those around her know how to deal with her (teachers and learning assistants, that is). It doesn't mean that she can never learn to improve her interactions with the world - many autistic people do.

So I'd say that a mental illness is a personality trait. There is no line between them. It's just that some personality traits cause more problems than others when it comes to the wider world, problems which cannot usually be resolved by the individual without help of some sort.

(Just my opinion, I am not a psychologist, etc. And, FWIW, I'm bloody fed up of this 'nurture causes nearly everything' schtick).

 

[inflatable jesus]

I can't define it beyond what I have posted above:

Personalities are manifestations of our psychological strategies for getting on. These strategies only get called mental illness when they either don't meet our own needs for getting on (we feel sad, scared or experience other symptoms) or when the strategies contravene laws or other social norms.

That's not really true.

We don't generally devise a strategy for getting on and build our personality around it. Our approach to getting on, is really more of a reflection of our personality, which is composed of our neurological make-up and how our environment has shaped our behavior and sense of self. We can exercise a certain amount of self-control, but that's probably less important than the other two factors.

Also with a lot of mental illnesses, there are measurable differences in the the brain as compared with 'healthy' people. You don't just decide one day that your strategy for the afternoon should be to produce less serotonin and more dopamine. A person's self-perceived strategy for getting on depends a lot on the constraints of their body, and in particular their brain.

You are right though, that the separation between personality and mental illness is often cultural and has a lot to do with laws and social norms. However, that doesn't make the concept of mental illness any less real or any less useful. It's like the line between a dangerous amount of cholesterol in your system and a reasonable amount. The line is artificially constructed and some people might never get a heart attack even if they drift over it, but it's still a useful concept that refers to something real.

 

[Spion]

And, FWIW, I'm bloody fed up of this 'nurture causes nearly everything' schtick).

Why are you so angry about it?

 

[Spion]

That's not really true.

We don't generally devise a strategy for getting on and build our personality around it. Our approach to getting on, is really more of a reflection of our personality, which is composed of our neurological make-up and how our environment has shaped our behavior and sense of self. We can exercise a certain amount of self-control, but that's probably less important than the other two factors.

Also with a lot of mental illnesses, there are measurable differences in the the brain as compared with 'healthy' people. You don't just decide one day that your strategy for the afternoon should be to produce less serotonin and more dopamine. A person's self-perceived strategy for getting on depends a lot on the constraints of their body, and in particular their brain.

You are right though, that the separation between personality and mental illness is often cultural and has a lot to do with laws and social norms. However, that doesn't make the concept of mental illness any less real or any less useful. It's like the line between a dangerous amount of cholesterol in your system and a reasonable amount. The line is artificially constructed and some people might never get a heart attack even if they drift over it, but it's still a useful concept that refers to something real.

This post chimes more with what I'm thinking

 

[Idaho]

Why are you so angry about it?

Because it places the blame on the parents.

 

[Idaho]

I'm going to have to think about this. It's all getting rather nebulous and kind of unsatisfying in terms of finding definitions.

Perhaps the human experience isn't satisfactorily reduceable?

 

[Spion]

Because it places the blame on the parents.

That's a heck of broad and overly defensive brush you're wielding there. Surely the degree of 'blame' (a terrible way to start looking at it, btw) depends on the 'mental illness' in question.

With autism, for eg, AFAIK it has entirely genetic causes, so there can be no question of blame (unless someone wanted to start blaming people for having a child in the first place).

Then again, with say schizophrenia, AFAIK has a lot to do with nurture. But then can you 'blame the parents'? I'm not sure that's a practically helpful - and is probably a very damaging - way to look at it.

Almost all the characteristics of personality passed on by carers seems to be done less than fully self-consciously, so while it is possible to apportion blame to parents, gaining insight to break damaging patterns of behaviour would seem to be the way to deal with it.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Mental illness can be treated with drugs. Personality disorder can't. Generally.

 

[inflatable jesus]

Then again, with say schizophrenia, AFAIK has a lot to do with nurture.

I'm not so sure about that. From what I've read, environment can be a trigger for it's onset but I've never seen any decent data linking it to parenting or anything like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia

As far as I know, the disorders with the strongest links to family structures tend to be eating disorders and other kinds of addictions.

 

[Spion]

I'm not so sure about that. From what I've read, environment can be a trigger for it's onset but I've never seen any decent data linking it to parenting or anything like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_schizophrenia

As far as I know, the disorders with the strongest links to family structures tend to be eating disorders and other kinds of addictions.

I knew I was going to get questioned on that one

Although, as the article you've linked to says: "currently most researchers and clinicians believe it results from a combination of both brain vulnerabilities (either inherited or acquired) and life events."

 

[inflatable jesus]

So long as you mean nurture in a very broad sense then that's permissible.

 

[Teddy Picker]

There is no such thing as mental illness. Well, there is, but it's merely a strong extension of what is perceived as an abhorrent personality. Normality is what the majority is. If you do not fall in line with what is considered normal, you may be considered an 'idiot' or a 'twit'. If you stray too far from normality, you are dubbed mentally ill.

It is morally right to 'treat' such people, because a) they may damage others with their abhorrent personality and b) it's the best chance they have of being accepted and living a good life in the world of normality.

Or think of it this way. If everybody had Multiple Personalities, that would be considered normal. If someone displayed only one they would be mentally ill and should be corrected to be accepted.

 

[Idaho]

We are still falling into nature-nurture

 

[Spion]

We are still falling into nature-nurture

What else is there? Get us out of our rut, professor

 

[Spion]

So long as you mean nurture in a very broad sense then that's permissible.

Well, I mean by nurture, 'social interaction that affects us after we are born'.

What do psychologists mean by it?

 

[inflatable jesus]

I don't know. For some people it seems to refer to everything environmental, but when I hear it, I can't help but think the person is referring to parenting and the like.

That's probably just me though.

 

[scifisam]

Why are you so angry about it?

I'm not angry, just fed up of it.

 

[Spion]

I'm not angry, just fed up of it.

Why are you fed up about it then?

 

[Jonti]

There is no such thing as mental illness. Well, there is, but it's merely a strong extension of what is perceived as an abhorrent personality. Normality is what the majority is...

There is such a thing as psychopathology.

It's true pathology is not normal, but most people (in a hospital for example, or in the course of a severe plague) could be ill.

 

[Jonti]

Mental illness can be treated with drugs. Personality disorder can't. Generally.

This sounds like the answer to the OP.

It probably reflects the difference between a metabolic and a developmental issue.

 

[scifisam]

Why are you fed up about it then?

It just seems like you've read a couple of books recently and have the fervour of the newly-educated, liking their theories to the exclusion of almost everything else that's related to it. I don't see this as a productive time to talk to you about the subject - not for me anyway. I know you mean nothing bad; it's just a bit futile.

 

[Spion]

I'm prepared to explore these issues patiently and honestly, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's your call.

 

[Blagsta]

Mental illness can be treated with drugs. Personality disorder can't. Generally.

This is a ridiculous statement.

 

[scifisam]

I'm prepared to explore these issues patiently and honestly, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's your call.

Yup. Maybe in a few months or something.

 

[Jonti]

A human has to be taken in context, and the context is as part of a troop. We are social animals that live, compete, and co-operate together. We are not as individual as we like to imagine. You are the way you are because of the way we all are. Me too

So, yeah, we're social, co-operative primates. We're all different, like each orgasm or strawberry is different from every other orgasm or strawberry. And some of us can be unwell in mind or body:- a theoretical understanding that does not at least allow for that is deficient.

 

[goldenecitrone]

This is a ridiculous statement.

Why?

 

[Blagsta]

Why?

Because mental illnesses are often not cured by drugs. IIRC, for depression, the best outcomes are for drugs and some kind of talking therapy. It may be true to say that mental illnesses can be controlled by drugs, with the proviso that some can't and that different drugs will work for different people. Most mental health problems are never "cured" anyway, the sufferer usually finds some way of living with it. Mental ill health is not like an infection that can be cured.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Because mental illnesses are often not cured by drugs. IIRC, for depression, the best outcomes are for drugs and some kind of talking therapy. It may be true to say that mental illnesses can be controlled by drugs, with the proviso that some can't and that different drugs will work for different people. Most mental health problems are never "cured" anyway, the sufferer usually finds some way of living with it. Mental ill health is not like an infection that can be cured.

Did you read my post?

It said

Mental illness can be treated with drugs. Personality disorder can't. Generally.

Where did you get 'cured' from?

 

[Blagsta]

Did you read my post?

It said

Where did you get 'cured' from?

Sorry, my bad.

Sometimes drugs work, sometimes they don't. Pd is sometimes treated with drugs too.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Sorry, my bad.

Sometimes drugs work, sometimes they don't. Pd is sometimes treated with drugs too.

Really. I wasn't aware of that to be honest. I thought it was pretty much untreatable, hence psychiatrists being very wary of pressure to lump personality disorders in with mental illness.