The line between mental illness and personality

[Meltingpot]

Great point

I know a bloke who is the most charming bloke you'd meet

but really he is a cheating, slag, manipulative, shallow, woman beating, lying, selfish, narcisisstic, violent psycho.

But he gets away with it, by lying and charming his way out of situations.

I often wonder if this bloke is actually mantally ill

Probably a sociopath, or at least borderline.

 

[Spion]

When did you become the psychology expert?

I've read a book or two lately on it. Sparked by someone I know having problems in the heid, but it really got me thinking. Interesting subject

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

What is it? Is someone obsessive because they are mentally ill or because that's their personality? When does an antisocial trait become illness?

...And as an extension - is it moral to 'treat' personality traits as if they were mental illness?

I can't make up my mind on this. There seems to be so much of what makes up our behaviour, how weare treated. But yet this seems to remove a lot of responsibility from our actions.

I have mentioned it previously on urban but I have been 'diagnosed' with Asperger's Syndrome. While it is included in the DSMIV classification manual, I don't accept it is a mental health illness/psychiatric illness.

I think of it more in the way that several decades ago, people who were homosexual were also considered to be mentally ill, whereas nowadays it's accepted by most (apart from religious fundamentalist types) that homosexuality is part of a natural spectrum of sexuality, and similarly I believe that AS is just part of life's natural neurodiversity.

I *am* Aspie, I don't *have* Asperger's Syndrome, just as a gay person *is* gay, they don't *have* homosexuality.

I don't want to be cured, because AS is an intrinsic part of who I am, it can't be separated from 'me'. The traits are not 'symptoms' of a 'disease' that needs curing.

 

[Blagsta]

But when does being a dickhead become mental illness?

Usually when the see a psychiatrist and get a diagnosis. Mental illnesses are defined by diagnostic categories. It's rather circular and problematic.

 

[Spion]

I have mentioned it previously on urban but I have been 'diagnosed' with Asperger's Syndrome. While it is included in the DSMIV classification manual, I don't accept it is a mental health illness/psychiatric illness.

I think of it more in the way that several decades ago, people who were homosexual were also considered to be mentally ill, whereas nowadays it's accepted by most (apart from religious fundamentalist types) that homosexuality is part of a natural spectrum of sexuality, and similarly I believe that AS is just part of life's natural neurodiversity.

I *am* Aspie, I don't *have* Asperger's Syndrome, just as a gay person *is* gay, they don't *have* homosexuality.

I don't want to be cured, because AS is an intrinsic part of who I am, it can't be separated from 'me'. The traits are not 'symptoms' of a 'disease' that needs curing.

So, what's AS classified as?

I'm not clear what counts as a 'mental illness' and what doesn't.

I mean, I can see there's a difference between, say, AS - which I think is genetic, or has to do with the physical development of the brain - and depression or personality disorders (maybe schizophrenia too?) which seem to be largely to do with childhood care.

 

[Pip]

So, what's AS classified as?

I'm not clear what counts as a 'mental illness' and what doesn't.

I mean, I can see there's a difference between, say, AS - which I think is genetic, or has to do with the physical development of the brain - and depression or personality disorders (maybe schizophrenia too?) which seem to be largely to do with childhood care.

I think there's a genetic element to all mental illness. What's your big thing with childhood care?

 

[Spion]

I think there's a genetic element to all mental illness. What's your big thing with childhood care?

That childhood care (or more importantly neglect) is shown to affect brain chemistry in a way that conditions types of behaviour later on. Young children subject to stresses such as abuse produce too much of the stress hormone cortisol which causes a PTSD-type effect that stays with them, for example, and can lead to mental problems throught life

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/37/1/23

People reach for the 'genes' explanation far too easily, IMO. It's almost like it's become a new way of saying, 'well, that's how god made us' when in fact - it seems to me - that so many of the disorders we see are down to the rotten ways people treat children

 

[Pip]

So why does mental illness run in families? Even if you weren't raised by that family? Are you sure it's not more likely that poor mental health is just sitting there, waiting to be triggered by something circumstantial, which is what we've known for ages?

That thing about cortisol and PTSD is interesting btw.

 

[Spion]

So why does mental illness run in families?

Here's an EG. In the first six months of a baby's life the only way it can begin to distinguish between me and not-me is by empathic responses from its carer - smiles, waves, words/gurgles etc. If the mother is severely depressed and can't stand the sight of it, bang, you've probably got someone who has a poor sense of themself. If their care is unresponsive or aggressive into the following years you'll stand a good chance of someone who has difficulties forming attachments and has insecurity and all sorts of other issues in later life.

Even if you weren't raised by that family?

I think that'd depend on the 'disorder' wouldn't it? What were you thinking of?

Are you sure it's not more likely that poor mental health is just sitting there, waiting to be triggered by something circumstantial, which is what we've known for ages?

I'm not 'sure' of any of these things. I've been reading a bit of stuff lately and some of it sems to make sense, that's all

 

[Pip]

edit: misread

 

[adc069975]

The mental health paradigm has a certain case to answer for. Someone with ADD may be perfectly adapted for a life hunting, but is considered ill where he is expected to be passive, sit still for long stretches of time, take lots of instructions - none of which are very natural or healthy to begin with. On the other hand, as long as you aren't unproductive or break the law you're not likely to be considered 'ill' but just express individual 'personality traits'.

 

[inflatable jesus]

People reach for the 'genes' explanation far too easily...

I'd be careful of reaching too far in the other direction though. The thing with mental disorders is that similar symptoms can have a range of different causes.

I tend to go with the idea that biology and environment can both be factors to varying degrees for various disorders in various people. I don't think there's any simple rule you can apply across the board.

 

[inflatable jesus]

I have mentioned it previously on urban but I have been 'diagnosed' with Asperger's Syndrome...

I have a lot of respect for your position and I thought your post was really interesting.

I'm curious though. Do you think that applies to all people with Aspergers (/or are Aspies)?

It would seem to me that while 'illness' certainly seems like the wrong word, it does describe a certain neurological phenomenon that can negatively impact a person's ability to function in the world.

 

[Blagsta]

The genes/environment thing is a false dichotomy. Environment determines how genes are expressed. It is neither one nor the other, but both.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

The mental health paradigm has a certain case to answer for. Someone with ADD may be perfectly adapted for a life hunting, but is considered ill where he is expected to be passive, sit still for long stretches of time, take lots of instructions - none of which are very natural or healthy to begin with. On the other hand, as long as you aren't unproductive or break the law you're not likely to be considered 'ill' but just express individual 'personality traits'.

Or not. Since hunting has a fuckload of sitting around waiting.

 

[Spion]

. . . and the days between hunts spent sitting around and sleeping, eating and gossipping that seem to make up the bulk of hunters lives in hunter gatherer communities.

 

[Idaho]

Usually when the see a psychiatrist and get a diagnosis. Mental illnesses are defined by diagnostic categories. It's rather circular and problematic.

...

The genes/environment thing is a false dichotomy. Environment determines how genes are expressed. It is neither one nor the other, but both.

Therefore the logical extension is that there is no such thing as an undiagnosed mental illness.

The nature/nuture debate is really just used didactically. I don't think anyone believes there is an answer to it now we can start to understand a lot more about brain chemistry and genetics.

 

[Spion]

Therefore the logical extension is that there is no such thing as an undiagnosed mental illness.

Which is quite clearly fallacio

 

[Idaho]

I don't think it is false. I don't think it's true either. As Blagsta says, it's circular logic.

The act of defining behaviour as mental illness makes it mental illness. If the psychological boffins all got toether and decided that dressing up as Star Trek characters was Star Trek Dellusional Disorder, then it would be mental illness.

It would no longer be a personality decision to dress as Mr Spock, but a problem to be fixed.

 

[Spion]

So, a man that is suffering from delusions and kills 10 people during delusional episodes isn't mentally ill until he is, let's say, diagnosed by the psychiatric panel at the remand centre?

I've got a problem with that really.

It seems to me that people clearly do have mental health issues that precede diagnosis.

But hey, enlighten me if I'm missing something

 

[Idaho]

Obviously after the facts come to light we can say he was mentally ill. He presents his illness by way of a criminal act which comes to light.

However if he lived happily enough with his delusions and didn't want any treatment - would he be mentally ill?

 

[Spion]

However if he lived happily enough with his delusions and didn't want any treatment - would he be mentally ill?

I would expect that by a reasonable definition of severe delusions and associated behaviour, yes he would. It's hard to imagine in a real world example that killing a bunch of people isn't going to have some pretty noticable corollaries in other areas of his life.

People refuse all sorts of treatment, even for physical illness

 

[kyser_soze]

Or not. Since hunting has a fuckload of sitting around waiting.

. . . and the days between hunts spent sitting around and sleeping, eating and gossipping that seem to make up the bulk of hunters lives in hunter gatherer communities.

Indeed.

 

[Homeless Mal]

First post on this forum so hello. I would say the man spraying piss and crap is not mentally ill, just a nasty evil type, maybe personality disordered, but equally maybe having a breakdown, though the alleged offenses hint at something darker.

As for the aspergers argument, I think aspergers can be acquired too. I had a job once in a government office wehere loads of people had worked there for years and many of them had very similar traits: flat affects, bluntness, unable to read tone or body language. Now I am sure a few were like that when they started, but the similarity between many of them was alarming

 

[Idaho]

I would expect that by a reasonable definition of severe delusions and associated behaviour, yes he would. It's hard to imagine in a real world example that killing a bunch of people isn't going to have some pretty noticable corollaries in other areas of his life.

People refuse all sorts of treatment, even for physical illness

The thing is that "severe dellusions and associated behaviour" ecompasses such a broad spectrum of possible things as to be a fairly meaningless phrase.

Let's ignore the murdering, or indeed any criminal act. Someone who is rude and unpleasant to everyone could be said to be mentally ill or just be a wanker. Healthy, happy humans should have a social element to their personalities.

 

[frogwoman]

First post on this forum so hello. I would say the man spraying piss and crap is not mentally ill, just a nasty evil type, maybe personality disordered, but equally maybe having a breakdown, though the alleged offenses hint at something darker.

As for the aspergers argument, I think aspergers can be acquired too. I had a job once in a government office wehere loads of people had worked there for years and many of them had very similar traits: flat affects, bluntness, unable to read tone or body language. Now I am sure a few were like that when they started, but the similarity between many of them was alarming

Not sure about aspergers being "acquired" but we certainly pick up mannerisms/behaviours from people around us and behave differently with different people,

or they may have all been very bored

 

[frogwoman]

Placing too much emphasis on distinct categories of mental illness, IMO, misses the effect that environment can have. Like blagsta says, it's an interplay of both environmental and genetic factors. It's perfectly possible, for example, that a child born to autistic or AS parents will adopt much of their behaviour, even when they're actually "neurotypical" if you know what I mean?

 

[Spion]

The thing is that "severe dellusions and associated behaviour" ecompasses such a broad spectrum of possible things as to be a fairly meaningless phrase.

Well, sure, but how do you begin to differentiate between types of delusional behaviour?

Let's ignore the murdering, or indeed any criminal act. Someone who is rude and unpleasant to everyone could be said to be mentally ill or just be a wanker. Healthy, happy humans should have a social element to their personalities.

So, what do you think?

I generally feel that there could be a lot more awareness of what makes us, mentally speaking

 

[Spion]

Placing too much emphasis on distinct categories of mental illness, IMO, misses the effect that environment can have. Like blagsta says, it's an interplay of both environmental and genetic factors. It's perfectly possible, for example, that a child born to autistic or AS parents will adopt much of their behaviour, even when they're actually "neurotypical" if you know what I mean?

A child cared for by parents with issues that affect how they relate to that child will produce quite identifiable personality traits.

And my guess is that someone raised by two AS parents wouldn't exactly reproduce those parents' traits but would demonstrate a lot of characteristics created - at a more general level in a way - by the degree of responsiveness and empathy of those people as carers of a baby/small child.

 

[Idaho]

Well, sure, but how do you begin to differentiate between types of delusional behaviour?

So, what do you think?

I generally feel that there could be a lot more awareness of what makes us, mentally speaking

What is interesting from this thread is how it is desperate to fall into a more well trammelled groove of nature/nurture.

What do I think? I think our personalities are manifestations of our psychological strategies for getting on. These strategies only get called mental illness when they either don't meet our own needs for getting on (we feel sad, scared or experience other symptoms) or when the strategies contravene laws or other social norms.

I don't think there is a clear line between personality and mental illness.