the left is dead

[mk12]

The Trot left and Tankies who are still fighting the battles of the 1930's are definitely dead. All that we are seeing now in groups like the CPGB/SWP/WRP/WL etc etc etc is the antemortem quiverings of a soon to be corpse.

I think that progressive ideas and a desire for a fairer society isn't dead its just that I think in the future countries and groups will look to other philosphies to back it up instead of following the failed quasi religious teachings of Marx etc.

Getting rid of the philosophical dross that underpinned so much 20th Cent leftism may in time lead to a new sort of left thinking.

Good post

but maybe the Allende Govt could have done stuff that would have prevented this happening. Such as not threatening for forcibly nationalise businesses.

...and I withdraw that last comment.

 

[derf]

i am wondering what it will take for people to actually realise that the left are now totally dead. Or is everyone in denial?

No. They are just hiding in a corner until everyone forgets what a fuck up they are. Then they will re-emerge and fuck up the place again.

 

[biff curtains]

Times are changing. Things are going to be different. This whole internet thing is a profound change like the invention of printing, or the industrial revolution. There are a lot of other things happening, the balance of power in the world is shifting, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rise of China, or the whole thing about Climate Change.

The mood of defeatism is wrong, because it takes an internal look at things and sees the lack of success of the left as it used to be. It's backwards looking. We need to look at waht is happening now.

Concepts like social justice and care, socialism, workplace rights, fair wages, the protection of peoples livelihoods, and other things like that are still applicable, but their practical working out in the present and the future will be different from how they were in the past.

The Left needs to adapt. If it doesn't, then the rightwards shift will go unchallenged. The right will then prevail. It's difficult to get away from fighting these internal battles because it's easier and safer for activists to dispute with other activists who mostly agree with them and share their beliefs than it is to try and go outside "the radical ghetto" and talk to people.

Spot on.

 

[nino_savatte]

It certainly canbe nino - it doesn't mean that's true of all cases though.

Nitpicking, Mr Apron? That isn't like you. That isn't like you at all. Anyone would think that you were right all the time and doubtless you believe that too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No. They are just hiding in a corner until everyone forgets what a fuck up they are. Then they will re-emerge and fuck up the place again.

Who, "the left"?

Name names or STFU.

 

[Brainaddict]

The Trot left and Tankies who are still fighting the battles of the 1930's are definitely dead. All that we are seeing now in groups like the CPGB/SWP/WRP/WL etc etc etc is the antemortem quiverings of a soon to be corpse.

I think that progressive ideas and a desire for a fairer society isn't dead its just that I think in the future countries and groups will look to other philosphies to back it up instead of following the failed quasi religious teachings of Marx etc.

Getting rid of the philosophical dross that underpinned so much 20th Cent leftism may in time lead to a new sort of left thinking.

Good post

Other posts not so.

 

[liampreston]

There's a little line in the post on Socialist Unity about the Convetion of the Left. During one of the meetings, some speakers from the left- and far-left groups still speak in an outdated mode, "Speaking as a post-Leninist etc. etc". The parties of the far left do some great things on a grassroots level, but it seems in electoral mode they revert to highly academic tone and attitude. The far right have adapted to some degree, look how many BNP candidates talk on the doorstep about taxes, litter collection etc. The reports from wards with BNP councillors seem to show an acknowledgement that voters assume the BNP are the only ones to "talk their language"

The left and far-left can adapt, they've shown that in the bigger scale, but look at the situation electorally. Trying to form yet another group in time for the next election is a step which can only work if it speaks to, and attracts, the disillusioned who have not been attracted by the right and far-right specifically. Look at the massive poll by PolicitsHome - great swathes of northern and north-eastern England going Conservative.

The far-left do get derided for being too interested in themselves and so many -ists and -isms. Any campaign for a new workers party (to coin a phrase ) needs to do more than fight 21st Century battles using 1940s language.

 

[treelover]

The Stop the War demonstration had about 2500 people on it, maybe a few hundred more. It was lively enough, and should be regarded as a successful regional mobilisation, largely from the North West. However there is a law of diminishing returns operating, of the same usual suspects marching through empty streets around the Labour Conference venue.

Read this on the SU blog, surely this is even more an indication of the demise of the left: only 2500 on the STW march and he calls it a sucess. If there was to be march, it should have been about rising utility bills, the financial crisis, the welfare cuts, housing, etc, basic issues which people will respond to.

oh and there is Lyndsey German talking about unity and the left!, what next, Gordon Brown talking about successful economies, Sir ian Blair on harmonious race relations, you couldn't make it up.

 

[brasicritique]

seconded

 

[poster342002]

If there was to be march, it should have been about rising utility bills, the financial crisis, the welfare cuts, housing, etc, basic issues which people will respond to.

And yet the left continues to adopt a stoney wall of silence as to why they never organise over this (or come back with inane things like; "well why don't YOU do it?"

It's almost as if the left is actually afraid of the bottled up mass anger that could be awoken if these issues were marched against.

 

[Zachor]

It's almost as if the left is actually afraid of the bottled up mass anger that could be awoken if these issues were marched against.

Yup. The Trot left etc is terrified of that which they cannot control.

 

[poster342002]

Yup. The Trot left etc is terrified of that which they cannot control.

Indeed - despite all their empty rhetoric about "organise! build resistance!" blah blah blah. If there was ever any serious revolt they'd all shit themselves and line up behind the state.

 

[Steve Booth]

Taking them on on their home ground

I think the OP is rather hoping for the demise of the Left. Any suggestions that the Left is "dead" is a continuation of the Thatcher myth that there is "no such thing as society, only families and individuals".

There are two themes on this thread we need to think about. One is the political parties; mainly Labour / Conservative, with the marginalised left, and other parties as outside the main event. This is mostly about the who and the how.

The second thing we need to think about are the political opinions, the views people hold, their ideas about what they want, what they need. These people are mostly outside the political parties. Its the substance of politics, the subject matter of politics. What is to be done?

Supposing the Left went to places like Wokingham, Basingstoke, Basildon - all those sort of places where the Thatcherite right are based, the sort of bel-wether constituencies, the Right-wing strong-holds, and started to challenge the right on their home turf.

At first this might not seem like a good idea, in that the people in those areas would not accept the message. But on the other hand if the Left is correct in its criticisms of capitalism, something of that criticism will strike home. There are a lot of social problems out there, even in Basingstoke, and the misery capitalism creates will have an impact there.

Over a long period of time, the Left could keep on challenging the Right in those places, and analysing the things the right does, criticising it, showing up the weak points. On top of this, they could listen to what people say to them there, the people who begin to identify with the message, and then fine tune what is said to try to draw in more people.

I'm not saying the Left would necessarily ever get seats on the council in such places, (though we should not rule out the possibility), but in taking then on on their home territory, perhaps the centre of gravity of politics would shift Leftwards.

It would have a ripple effect outwards.....

 

[Zachor]

Supposing the Left went to places like Wokingham, Basingstoke, Basildon - all those sort of places where the Thatcherite right are based, the sort of bel-wether constituencies, the Right-wing strong-holds, and started to challenge the right on their home turf.

Common sense at last. Provided that the community politics is done first and done properly its definitely one way forward.

 

[brasicritique]

I don't know whether you're feigning ignorance or really are this stupid, and frankly I don't care, but "organised left" doesn't ipso facto mean "new Labour" it means "organised leftists", as anyone but an abysmal fuckwit can discern....

you know i the difference between organised (thats a joke) left and newshamebore however i assumed that most posters would know this as most other posters evidently do looking around this thread

but still you just didnt care about it so much you just had to post on it

Meanwhile, back in the real world where brasic's demented fantasies don't hold sway...

yeah as it is totally a demented fantasy to argue that the left as it had exsisted in the previous century in all its forms no longer can be sad to really exsist and where it does those who consider themselves 'left' are more like a cult

i was going to say theres only one fantasist here- but i am wrong there ninonothing and lizardsapron and what do you all share? persecution complexes one and all - all three of you say the same unoriginal boring things over and over to any poster who disagrees with you and you utilise the following smears

tory
racsist
toff
mental illness

you would save eveyones time if you just cut and pasted these into your posts for whenever you disagreed with someone

 

[Al Kahul]

I have been here barely a week and seen the same thing.I haven't been had any conversation with nino savate and he started this odd 'in joke' about greek philosophy seemingly at my expense.

 

[butchersapron]

It's nothing to with philosophy old bean, It's to with Stowe the school - are you familiar with it?

 

[nino_savatte]

I have been here barely a week and seen the same thing.I haven't been had any conversation with nino savate and he started this odd 'in joke' about greek philosophy seemingly at my expense.

Your grammar stinks, old bean. I didn't mention philosophy and besides the name that you mentioned was Marcus Aurelius who was a proponent of Stoicism. A bright spark like you should know that - non?

 

[nino_savatte]

you know i the difference between organised (thats a joke) left and newshamebore however i assumed that most posters would know this as most other posters evidently do looking around this thread

but still you just didnt care about it so much you just had to post on it




yeah as it is totally a demented fantasy to argue that the left as it had exsisted in the previous century in all its forms no longer can be sad to really exsist and where it does those who consider themselves 'left' are more like a cult

i was going to say theres only one fantasist here- but i am wrong there ninonothing and lizardsapron and what do you all share? persecution complexes one and all - all three of you say the same unoriginal boring things over and over to any poster who disagrees with you and you utilise the following smears

tory
racsist
toff
mental illness

you would save eveyones time if you just cut and pasted these into your posts for whenever you disagreed with someone

Lay off the drink, chum. It's clear that alcohol has destroyed your ability to string together a coherent sentence...as this post amply demonstrates.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yup. The Trot left etc is terrified of that which they cannot control.

What's the "Trot" left? Are they like the "cod left"?

 

[Al Kahul]

It's nothing to with philosophy old bean, It's to with Stowe the school - are you familiar with it?

I went to school in Surrey and I don't remember a school called Stowe being there. I was at school with Dominic Laws who is now a Lib Dem MP.So you can find out where I went very quickly. There is a Stow in the Wold in Gloucestershire is that what you are referring to ?

Anyway Allende and Pinnochet.

There is much truth that Pinnochet is the Tory Fidel -after all they are both South American,Both murdered about 3000 people after gaining power ,both happily employed torture.Pinnochet went into voluntary (actually forced to by the US ) democratic elections -which he fortunately lost.The Castro brothers have unfortunately done no such thing.

As for Allende. He was elected by Congress on the condition that he did not attempt wholesale nationalisation .After he reneged on the deal congress declared his actions unconstitutional and called for his resignation.Allende refused claiming (correctly) that the constitution did not allow for impeachment. He then set about baiting the right with various actions notably declaring that was not the president of all Chileans.Even after the coup he did not escape to Cuba -as he was given the option to but committed suicide. Chile then endured 15 years of dictatorship .

So was Allende responsible for his own downfall ? Taking into account that the office of president should have people who can manage strategy then clearly yes .He played a dangerous game and lost.

Luckily Chile has been ruled since by a Social democrat/Socialist/Liberal coalition who have increased freedoms while keeping a very sane economy,

 

[Al Kahul]

I just Googled "Stowe"

Its in Buckinghamshire apparently .

I have never lived in Buckinghamshire.

 

[butchersapron]

This is, of course, all bollocks. Take just one point for example:

.Even after the coup he did not escape to Cuba -as he was given the option to but committed suicide.

i presume you've not heard the intercept of the end of Pinochet authorising Vice-Admiral Patricio Carvajal to offer Allende a flight out of the country:

Pinochet: "The offer to take him out of the country is still maintained. If the plane falls, old boy, when it's in flight. . ."

Carvajal: (laughter)

Looks like Allende wasn't as naive as you are.

 

[nino_savatte]

As for Allende. He was elected by Congress on the condition that he did not attempt wholesale nationalisation .After he reneged on the deal congress declared his actions unconstitutional and called for his resignation.Allende refused claiming (correctly) that the constitution did not allow for impeachment. He then set about baiting the right with various actions notably declaring that was not the president of all Chileans.Even after the coup he did not escape to Cuba -as he was given the option to but committed suicide. Chile then endured 15 years of dictatorship .

So was Allende responsible for his own downfall ? Taking into account that the office of president should have people who can manage strategy then clearly yes .He played a dangerous game and lost.

That's an interesting version of events. Pity for you that it doesn't square with the actual reality - eh?

 

[Al Kahul]

That's an interesting version of events. Pity for you that it doesn't square with the actual reality - eh?

Perhaps you can show me a different set of events from a non Marxist/left publication .

 

[butchersapron]

I was at school with Dominic Laws who is now a Lib Dem MP.

Who? No such person.

 

[nino_savatte]

Perhaps you can show me a different set of events from a non Marxist/left publication .

Perhaps you could try and disguise your agenda a little better.

 

[nino_savatte]

Let's look at this

Luckily Chile has been ruled since by a Social democrat/Socialist/Liberal coalition who have increased freedoms while keeping a very sane economy,

Is this what ordinary Chileans think? You forget that everything has been privatised; including the social functions of the state.

 

[butchersapron]

After he reneged on the deal congress declared his actions unconstitutional and called for his resignation.

Didn't happen. The Supreme Court of Chile is the only body fit to declare that the Presidents actions were unconstitutional - not congress. You're confusing this with parties and MPs in congress saying they believe those actions to be unconstitutional - something very very different.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I went to school in Surrey and I don't remember a school called Stowe being there. I was at school with Dominic Laws who is now a Lib Dem MP.

Would that be David Laws? The fees for your old school's 6th form in 2007 stood at £4,225 per term; an extra £190* per term would see you getting lunch as well.

Louis MacNeice

*adds up to over £13k per year before any travel, uniform etc costs are taken into account.