the left is dead

[Jeff Robinson]

AFAIK it's little worse than most other South American governments, and better than some. And certainly better than a lot of the right-wing governments foisted on the continent over the years.

I can't help thinking, there's a certain hypocrisy in the way a lot of people (not you specifically, Zachor) talk of left-wing governments, expecting them somehow to be all of a sudden comparable with the wealthiest countries on earth whereas they wouldn't dream of demanding that of neighbouring countries that don't have stridently lefty presidents.

I'd say that Venezuela has got a strong claim that it's human rights record is far superior to that of the USA. On a formal constitutional level the Venezuelan Government doesn't sanction the killing of its own people, nor does it kidnap and torture the nationals of other states.

On top of which it provides the poor access to healthcare and employment rights that superior to that of their American counterparts.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I don't care about 'tiny far left groups' either, which is why I was talking about testing to destruction of mainstream right wing philosophies.

I know, I was backin' ya up!

 

[Steve Booth]

Two senses of 'dead' -

i am wondering what it will take for people to actually realise that the left are now totally dead. Or is everyone in denial?

I don't think it is true or meaninglful to say that "the left is now totally dead." There are two separate things here: ---

(1) The ideas of the left. Some of these are no longer believed by people, some are felt to be discredited, or are felt to be irrelevant. To mark out and analyse these would be a big task. However, some of the ideas of the left are still capable of being developed in the present, are not discredited, and are relevant to today.

This leads to: ---
(2) The organisations of the left. Many or most of these are moribund, are too small to be effective, are not trusted by ordinary people, are not capable of garnering enough support to actually make a difference. People may look at their past activities, and disagree with them. This is a criticism of the organisations.

It does not follow from this that the Left can never have an effect again in the future. Supposing some people from the left could collect together the right ideas and build together an organisation which was effective, the left would again be effective. But I think we need to keep these two things separate when we look at this question.

People might have the right ideas and the wrong organisation, or vice versa. None of this is easy.

 

[butchersapron]

I'd add the people who are supposed to be the organs of the ideas of point 1). Do they exist? Have they rejected the ideas of the left? Have they formulated the ideas of the left? What are they doing a9whioch doesn't mena what are the groups on point 2 doping)

 

[brasicritique]

The left isn't dead.

yes it is

The organised left, just like it's always been, is factionalised, and some elements of the left see no cause (not economic, not social) for seeking any kind of modus vivendi with the rest of the left.

y nushamebore are neo cons are they not? organised left !thats a joke!

Or are you seeking to claim that "the left" is dead so that you can lead the remnants back to salvation?

no thats your fantasy commandant panda shared by butchersmac i think th eeditor once thought he would facilitate it back when he opposed things like the cjb tho he can now tell you what type of car you get with your office

 

[Darios]

no thats your fantasy commandant panda shared by butchersmac i think th eeditor once thought he would facilitate it back when he opposed things like the cjb tho he can now tell you what type of car you get with your office

*wipes tear*

Too funny.

 

[Zachor]

Up to point!!? Ok. Up to what point?

That the military takeover of Chile was wrong but maybe the Allende Govt could have done stuff that would have prevented this happening. Such as not threatening for forcibly nationalise businesses. You also need to look at stuff like this in the context of the time. There was a whole load of worries about Soviet Universalism which did alarm many people and countries.

I am an opponent of the Pinochet regime but I do wonder if this coup could have been prevented.

 

[Belushi]

That the military takeover of Chile was wrong but maybe the Allende Govt could have done stuff that would have prevented this happening. Such as not threatening for forcibly nationalise businesses.

Of do fuck off, nationalisation justifies the fascist overthrow over a democratic government and the torture and murder of thousands?

 

[Zachor]

(1) The ideas of the left. Some of these are no longer believed by people, some are felt to be discredited, or are felt to be irrelevant. To mark out and analyse these would be a big task. However, some of the ideas of the left are still capable of being developed in the present, are not discredited, and are relevant to today.

.

This is my POV on the matter. There is a lot worth saving in leftist ideas but also a lot that needs to be junked.

 

[Zachor]

Of do fuck off, nationalisation justifies the fascist overthrow over a democratic government and the torture and murder of thousands?

I didn't say it was justified did I? I said I could understand the situaiton AT THE TIME.

 

[Belushi]

I didn't say it was justified did I? I said I could understand the situaiton AT THE TIME.

Eh? you can understand why a fascist would want to overhrow a democratic regime?

 

[brasicritique]

I don't think it is true or meaninglful to say that "the left is now totally dead." There are two separate things here: ---

(1) The ideas of the left. Some of these are no longer believed by people, some are felt to be discredited, or are felt to be irrelevant. To mark out and analyse these would be a big task. However, some of the ideas of the left are still capable of being developed in the present, are not discredited, and are relevant to today.

This leads to: ---
(2) The organisations of the left. Many or most of these are moribund, are too small to be effective, are not trusted by ordinary people, are not capable of garnering enough support to actually make a difference. People may look at their past activities, and disagree with them. This is a criticism of the organisations.

It does not follow from this that the Left can never have an effect again in the future. Supposing some people from the left could collect together the right ideas and build together an organisation which was effective, the left would again be effective. But I think we need to keep these two things separate when we look at this question.

People might have the right ideas and the wrong organisation, or vice versa. None of this is easy.

I agree with what you are saying tho i also think that the term 'left' itself is dead and that those who were of the left or still consider themselves to be so are using a whole 'language' both linguistically and semiotically which is outdated

 

[Zachor]

Eh? you can understand why a fascist would want to overhrow a democratic regime?

I can understand why the Yanks stood by and let it happen. To their POV the worst outcome would be the Soviets setting up a base for military adventures and destabilisation on the mainland of South America.

Like I said I don't agree with it. From a historical distance it is tempting to think could Allende have made different decisions that wouldn't have resulted in the outcomes that happened.

The anti Allende forces did have enough support for it not to be stopped which does make me wonder just how much of Chile did support Allende.

So many questions like did Allende's mistakes and the way it was easy to categorise him as a Soviet Stooge make it more likely that his govt would be deposed and therefore condemning his country to years of brutal dictatorship.

 

[butchersapron]

That the military takeover of Chile was wrong but maybe the Allende Govt could have done stuff that would have prevented this happening. Such as not threatening for forcibly nationalise businesses. You also need to look at stuff like this in the context of the time. There was a whole load of worries about Soviet Universalism which did alarm many people and countries.

I am an opponent of the Pinochet regime but I do wonder if this coup could have been prevented.

Of course it other srteps couold have been taken. The problem is that each step would then be used as evidence of reds under the bed and thus useed to justify the coup. If your concern is that that Allende didn;t take the required steps (arming of the w/c, training in tactics, contraol of the transport and communciations network etc) the fine.

But frankly, you're not coming at it form that postion, and you're begining to stink of shit. I've defended you on here before, but you are cuurently rank and show no signs whatsoever of cleaning yourself up.

 

[Roadkill]

I didn't say it was justified did I? I said I could understand the situaiton AT THE TIME.

You did, whilst looking at the Americans' take on the situation completely uncritically and criticising the Allende regime for being overthrown amid a bloodbath.

Frankly, it's genuinely sad to see where you've come to politically.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That the military takeover of Chile was wrong but maybe the Allende Govt could have done stuff that would have prevented this happening. Such as not threatening for forcibly nationalise businesses. You also need to look at stuff like this in the context of the time. There was a whole load of worries about Soviet Universalism which did alarm many people and countries.

I am an opponent of the Pinochet regime but I do wonder if this coup could have been prevented.

Translation - Allende dressed too "provocatively" so it was his fault that Chile got raped.

You're fucking scum Jockey.

 

[butchersapron]

I can understand why the Yanks stood by and let it happen. To their POV the worst outcome would be the Soviets setting up a base for military adventures and destabilisation on the mainland of South America.

Like I said I don't agree with it. From a historical distance it is tempting to think could Allende have made different decisions that wouldn't have resulted in the outcomes that happened.

The anti Allende forces did have enough support for it not to be stopped which does make me wonder just how much of Chile did support Allende.

So many questions like did Allende's mistakes and the way it was easy to categorise him as a Soviet Stooge make it more likely that his govt would be deposed and therefore condemning his country to years of brutal dictatorship.

'Let it happen'? You mean engineered it. You mean funded, trained supplied and supported it?

Here's the lesson, electoral support means nothing. Friends of the left like keyboard jockey make that 100% clear. You're rapidly becoming scum.

 

[Belushi]

I can understand why the Yanks stood by and let it happen.

Of FFS they arranged it.

Frankly, it's genuinely sad to see where you've come to politically.

Innit, I've never had a problem with your shift to the right before KBJ but I'm genuinely appalled by your last few posts.

They raped women with dogs for fuck sake.

 

[Bakunin]

I can understand why the Yanks stood by and let it happen.

IIRC, US big business interests such as ITT and the US Government (in the form of the Central Intelligence Agency) did considerably more than 'stood by and let it happen.'

 

[Belushi]

The anti Allende forces did have enough support for it not to be stopped which does make me wonder just how much of Chile did support Allende.

Does the fact that the Poles didnt die on the streets in '82 make you queston how much of Poland supported Solidarnoc?

They tortured and slaughtered thousands, anyone lucky enough to avoid the round ups kept their heads well down.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Most political tories have a soft spot for Pinochet, he's kinda like their Fidel.

 

[Bakunin]

Most political tories have a soft spot for Pinochet, he's kinda like their Fidel.

I seem to recall General Pinochet and a certain Margaret Thatcher being more than a tad matey, yes.

 

[Roadkill]

Most political tories have a soft spot for Pinochet, he's kinda like their Fidel.

"He was this country's staunch, true friend..."

(Margaret Thatcher)

<e2a> Great minds think alike, Belushi...

Full text of what Thatch had to say about him here.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The rank and file ones love him too though in my experience.

Mind you Jack Straw and New Labour shouldn't be let off the hook for refusing to extradite the bastard.

 

[Zachor]

Of FFS they arranged it.



Innit, I've never had a problem with your shift to the right before KBJ but I'm genuinely appalled by your last few posts.

They raped women with dogs for fuck sake.

I have never said I approved of the Pinochet regime - I'm saying that maybe Allende's Govt shold have had enough nous to not see the fucking elephant traps that the Right were setting up.

There is a world of difference betwen understanding a political context and actively approving of the actions. FFS I can understand the political motivations of many who I don't necessarily agree with.

I know perfectly well how bestial the Pinochet Govt were.

Maybe in an alternative non Pinochet Chile Allende would have ended up as a dictator we don't know but we can speculate.

BTW I'm not a right winger I'm a social democrat.

 

[Zachor]

I seem to recall General Pinochet and a certain Margaret Thatcher being more than a tad matey, yes.

That was a pretty stomach churning episode in British politics. Agree tha he is a sort of Wingnuts Fidel though.

 

[Belushi]

I'm saying that maybe Allende's Govt shold have had enough nous to not see the fucking elephant traps that the Right were setting up.

What, by daring to win elections

 

[Zachor]

IIRC, US big business interests such as ITT and the US Government (in the form of the Central Intelligence Agency) did considerably more than 'stood by and let it happen.'

Agree there. But surely Allende should have seen what the forces mustering against him were up to?

 

[Darios]

There is a world of difference betwen understanding a political context and actively approving of the actions. FFS I can understand the political motivations of many who I don't necessarily agree with.

That's a distinction many in P&P appear willing to purposefully ignore.

 

[Zachor]

What, by daring to win elections

Or maybe by not poking a sleeping snake.

There are three parties to blame for the appalling situation of the Chileans The Americans. Pinochet and Allende. Its just some were more active in their blame than others. Pinoche and the Americans have a primary blame but Allende fucked up when he shouldn't have.