glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
By doing what specifically?
the left is dead
- Thread starter brasicritique
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What *should* he have done? (I agree there are things he could have done). And the context is the US and the eventual coup leaders organising a military rebellion remember. Let's see what your measures are.
And darios, would you ever stop fucking crying?
And darios, would you ever stop fucking crying?
By daring to carry out their democratic mandate? they somehow brought it on themselves by following policies the chilean people had voted for?!
How the hell did Allende fuck up?
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Yet more apologies. Your logic is reminiscent of the Neanderthals who think women who dress too "provocatively" share responsibility if they’re raped.
As for your speculation – you can fuck off with that too.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's democracy dude.
The nationalisation gambit was one that was going to cause problems with the Americans. Maybe some form of compromise could have been reached and over time the state of Chile could have bought shares in the companies and nationalised them by stealth.
Or maybe more effort should have been taken to ensure that the military were going to stay loyal. A longer term view might have had a better outlook for the Chileans.
It was a very very tense and trigger happy time back then. Both the US and the Soviets were fighting proxy wars.
I'm not sure I would have wanted to live under Pinchet OR Allende.
Like I said earlier I don't approve of what happened and this is an alternative history situation.
When you have a huge and powerful neighbour to your north it pays not to do stupid things politically which would cause problems for yourself.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What steps? I see none. You don't really know about what happened in Chile either do you?
They shouldn't have done what they did to provoke them. It's pathetic to see you reach this point.
They shouldn't have done what they did to provoke them. It's pathetic to see you reach this point.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Changed ever so slightly.
FFS KBJ talk about blame the victims
Its not blaming the VICTIMS its blaming the govts and entities involved.
Replace the words 'chile' 'pinochet' 'allende' with the words 'romans' 'boudicca' 'britain' and we can have the same debate without the heat. Its a question of bad political decisions by all parties.
Bollocks, as has been said earlier your the fella who blames the rape victim for leading him on.
Genuinely, you've fucking disgusted me today and I used to think you were well sound
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
So back to the contributory negligence pish argument again. Politically and morally bankrupt. Par for the cause for a tory rightwing scumbag piece of filth.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Humoring Zachor's logic for a moment, do we think Chavez has pulled his punches since he nearly got couped out of existence? I know he didnt tone down the rhetoric, but I wonder how the experience might have changed him. Still it seems like he got quite neutered after losing that referendum, and I havent been following things closely there since then. And is there no discussion about Bolivia on this forum? They seem to be in the middle of a struggle between the leftish state and some rich regions rightwing powerpeople, last I heard a governor of one of the regions was arrested.
I dont think there is anything wrong with speculating about why Allende got overthrown or what he could theoretically have done to avoid it, but its quite another thing to suggest he should of avoided it by caving in, that it was his own fault, or that there was really any justification for the hideous regime that followed. All the blood that was shed in South America may well have served as a deterrent against others moving to the left, and if you are right-wing then you can probably justify it, but pah, to blame the victims for not capitulating makes my blood boil.
I dont think there is anything wrong with speculating about why Allende got overthrown or what he could theoretically have done to avoid it, but its quite another thing to suggest he should of avoided it by caving in, that it was his own fault, or that there was really any justification for the hideous regime that followed. All the blood that was shed in South America may well have served as a deterrent against others moving to the left, and if you are right-wing then you can probably justify it, but pah, to blame the victims for not capitulating makes my blood boil.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Nope.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I don't know whether you're feigning ignorance or really are this stupid, and frankly I don't care, but "organised left" doesn't ipso facto mean "new Labour" it means "organised leftists", as anyone but an abysmal fuckwit can discern.
Meanwhile, back in the real world where brasic's demented fantasies don't hold sway...no thats your fantasy commandant panda shared by butchersmac i think th eeditor once thought he would facilitate it back when he opposed things like the cjb tho he can now tell you what type of car you get with your office
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Er, the Generals?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Is the left dead?
Who knows. Only time will tell. I certainly hope not, as the alternative is the forever moving right show that we have witnessed for the last 30 odd years.
But, yes the left needs to change, and evolve.
The more interesting question is why some erstwhile "ex-leftists" should treat the idea that the left (which apparently in their eyes includes everyone from Labour to the anarchists) is "dead" with such ill concealed glee and drooling. It goes beyond their lingering grudges against presumed wasted years in Trotty or bureaucratic meetings. Almost as though they are getting off in some kind of sado-masochistic way on the prospect of a gradual slide into fascism.
There we are, a new label - the SM ex-left.
Who knows. Only time will tell. I certainly hope not, as the alternative is the forever moving right show that we have witnessed for the last 30 odd years.
But, yes the left needs to change, and evolve.
The more interesting question is why some erstwhile "ex-leftists" should treat the idea that the left (which apparently in their eyes includes everyone from Labour to the anarchists) is "dead" with such ill concealed glee and drooling. It goes beyond their lingering grudges against presumed wasted years in Trotty or bureaucratic meetings. Almost as though they are getting off in some kind of sado-masochistic way on the prospect of a gradual slide into fascism.
There we are, a new label - the SM ex-left.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
This is pretty fucking appalling stuff to be fair.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Belushi, you’re clearly a decent guy (and I’d happily buy you a pint and/or a glass of cranberry juice irl) which is why I think you seek the best in others, but I’m afraid KBJ’s remarks on this thread to me are not aberrations but logically consistent with his rightward trajectory and of an individual who has displaced optimism and solidarity in favour of pessimism and narrow self-interest.
Earlier today in a thread concerning workplaces faced with looming redundancies KBJ wrote “All you can do is keep your head down and keep your nose clean and hope you are OK…
“Not worth making a fuss with Unions or shit like that cos a) if you make a fuss you are likely to be advanced up the To Go list b) they can't do fuck all anyway.”
Clearly the same logic is at work in this thread – there was no point in Popular Unity perusing reformist policies that could have antagonized the yanks. They should have just kept their heads down and their noses clean and hoped they would have been OK. Ironically, this is in essence the New Labour approach of avoiding a showdown with capital that KBJ claims to oppose (but clearly doesn’t or he wouldn’t support the outright neo-liberals of the tory party).
Allow me to sketch my hypothesis of KBJ’s political car crash based on the limited information I know of him from reading his posts on here.
The origins of KBJ’s rightist trajectory imo can be traced to his announcement that he’d crossed picket lines in a workplace dispute a year or so back. He justified this on the basis that he shouldn’t have to lose a day’s pay for a dispute that would in all likelihood not be victorious.
He subsequently announced that he’d been promoted in his workplace (he claims to work for the arms “control” industry). One wonders what lessons he drew from his experience – keep your head down, work hard and reap the rewards possibly? To hell with solidarity and collective action, that’s not going to get you a phatter pay check.
Now that KBJ’s got an increased annual pay packet he wants to splash out on a new set of wheels – a 4 by 4 should do it. They’re big and comfy and he deserves it, he’s earned it. The environmental and social consequences of the purchase are brushed aside – one more’s hardly going to make a difference is it?
But oh no, there’s trouble ahead – nasty Ken Livingstone is proposing an extra congestion charge on gas guzzlers and this will seriously eat into KBJ’s hard earned gains. Fortunately there’s one man standing in the way of KL’s wicked policy – Boris Johnson. There’s one problem though – BoJo’s obviously a thoroughly reactionary shit with a terrible voting record and opposed to KL’s plans for increased provision of affordable social housing. What is a leftist like KBJ to do? On the one hand he knows that only BoJo has the potential to prevent Ken’s assault on 4 x 4ers but he also knows that London’s poor will get fucked over by Johnson. In the end he plays the self interest card, it’s not greedy – there’s nothing wrong with looking after number 1 in this dog eat dog world.
He claims he’s not a tory – he only voted for Johnson because Livingstone was so bad, he would never back the tories in a general election. Fast forward a few months and he’s doing just that, this time to protest against the inequities of New Labour. This despite the fact that Cameron and co are openly committed to pursuing the same agenda of corporate privilege, deregulation, privatisation of public services and low taxes with even more vigor. Never mind, KBJ’s opportunity to voice his anger is more important than the impact these policies will have on the less well off.
KBJ, whilst not going so far as to endorse Pinochet, says he “understands” why he took power, speculates that Allende if left in power may have been as bad or worse and clearly views Allende’s reforms as the original sin. Again it’s the same pattern – don’t rock the boat or think that you can change the world for the better – the “pragmatic” pursuit of self-interest is the only way to go.
Once you give up on solidarity your leftism is meaningless and will unravel fast, up to and including becoming an apologist for fascism. A lesson for the other doom mongers perhaps.
Just saying like.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Great post jeff. Thanks for taking the time to do it.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Cheers Butch - well done for teasing out that last Pinochet nugget too. I would've missed it. 
Steve Booth
Bourgeois apologist
A change of mood
The mood of defeatism is wrong, because it takes an internal look at things and sees the lack of success of the left as it used to be. It's backwards looking. We need to look at waht is happening now.
Concepts like social justice and care, socialism, workplace rights, fair wages, the protection of peoples livelihoods, and other things like that are still applicable, but their practical working out in the present and the future will be different from how they were in the past.
The Left needs to adapt. If it doesn't, then the rightwards shift will go unchallenged. The right will then prevail. It's difficult to get away from fighting these internal battles because it's easier and safer for activists to dispute with other activists who mostly agree with them and share their beliefs than it is to try and go outside "the radical ghetto" and talk to people.
Times are changing. Things are going to be different. This whole internet thing is a profound change like the invention of printing, or the industrial revolution. There are a lot of other things happening, the balance of power in the world is shifting, the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rise of China, or the whole thing about Climate Change.Is the left dead?
Who knows. Only time will tell. I certainly hope not, as the alternative is the forever moving right show that we have witnessed for the last 30 odd years.
But, yes the left needs to change, and evolve.
The more interesting question is why some erstwhile "ex-leftists" should treat the idea that the left (which apparently in their eyes includes everyone from Labour to the anarchists) is "dead" with such ill concealed glee and drooling. It goes beyond their lingering grudges against presumed wasted years in Trotty or bureaucratic meetings. Almost as though they are getting off in some kind of sado-masochistic way on the prospect of a gradual slide into fascism.
There we are, a new label - the SM ex-left.
The mood of defeatism is wrong, because it takes an internal look at things and sees the lack of success of the left as it used to be. It's backwards looking. We need to look at waht is happening now.
Concepts like social justice and care, socialism, workplace rights, fair wages, the protection of peoples livelihoods, and other things like that are still applicable, but their practical working out in the present and the future will be different from how they were in the past.
The Left needs to adapt. If it doesn't, then the rightwards shift will go unchallenged. The right will then prevail. It's difficult to get away from fighting these internal battles because it's easier and safer for activists to dispute with other activists who mostly agree with them and share their beliefs than it is to try and go outside "the radical ghetto" and talk to people.
Personally I'm feeling the opposite at the moment. Membership (and crucially activism) in my local union is up. More young people have joined recently and become more involved, attendance at meetings is higher as is the number of workplaces standing up for themselves. If you add to this the large number of folks participating in (non-traditional 3 party) political action and protest nationally, I feel more optomistic than a few years ago.
In my experience, campaigning against pay cuts has led a greater number to actively question and confront other issues. I'm not suggesting this is a panacea but it's a much better start and with greater numbers than say, in the '90's. The usual far leftist Peoples Front of Judeas are on life support. This doesn't mean that there is not grassroots support and activism for change. The traditional 'Far Left' organisations have been behind the times and divorced from the public for a long time now.Take the recent protests against the BNP for example. They indicate that the SWP/UAF are struggling but activism from local groups and ordinary folks is increasing. In many ways this is positive.
In my experience, campaigning against pay cuts has led a greater number to actively question and confront other issues. I'm not suggesting this is a panacea but it's a much better start and with greater numbers than say, in the '90's. The usual far leftist Peoples Front of Judeas are on life support. This doesn't mean that there is not grassroots support and activism for change. The traditional 'Far Left' organisations have been behind the times and divorced from the public for a long time now.Take the recent protests against the BNP for example. They indicate that the SWP/UAF are struggling but activism from local groups and ordinary folks is increasing. In many ways this is positive.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I think the OP is rather hoping for the demise of the Left. Any suggestions that the Left is "dead" is a continuation of the Thatcher myth that there is "no such thing as society, only families and individuals".
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It certainly canbe nino - it doesn't mean that's true of all cases though.
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