Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

The Guardian's top 50 television dramas of all time

You think they're bad, try "A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon & Firefly"

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html

Truly frightening :eek:

Jesus suffering fuck:

Zoe, of course, is meant to be our empowered, ass-kicking sidechick. Like all sidechicks she is objectified from the get go. Her husband, Wash, talking about how he likes to watch her bathe. Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour. I have known a black woman whose white husband would strangle and bash her while her young children watched. My white grandfather liked black women because they were ‘exotic’, and he did not, could not treat women, especially women of colour, like human beings. I grew up watching my great aunts, my aunty and my mother all treated like shit by their white husbands, the men they loved. So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession.

I can't quite work out if this is actually a really clever parody or not - stuff like this:

lesbian feminist sister

Do people actually talk like this?
 
We all dived straight into defending Season 6 so quickly that I forgot to ask the more general question that I found interesting:

If you have five great seasons and then one bad one, do you suddenly go from being a great drama to a bad one? Shouldn't the single bad season be at worst neutral when you come to judge it?

I don't think it does exactly, but it depends how bad it is. Take the X-Files, for example.
 
Jesus suffering fuck:



I can't quite work out if this is actually a really clever parody or not - stuff like this:



Do people actually talk like this?

It's frightening real, unless she's a very dedicated parody writer. There's shedloads of critiques and articles.

She basically calls Joss Whedon a rapist (in her view, all men in consenting sexual relations are rapists) several times.
 
Jesus suffering fuck:



I can't quite work out if this is actually a really clever parody or not - stuff like this:



Do people actually talk like this?

I hope it's a parody - a terrible one.

The only person I know who uses terms like lesbian feminist sister ('soul sistah') does it tongue in cheek and is a bit off her head anyway.
 
I don't think it does exactly, but it depends how bad it is. Take the X-Files, for example.
The X-Files is a bit of a special case, though. As it progressed, it became clear that Chris Carter was actually making it up as he went along -- something he later admitted to. In doing so, it retrospectively made a lot of the earlier episodes shit, because they appeared to be portentous and meaningful at the time but they turned out to be nothing but placeholders for an as-yet unwritten plot.

A subtle effect, maybe, but an important one IMO. Nobody likes to look back and think, "Bollocks, that was all for nothing."
 
Geek gold ! :)

I think Whedon has acknowledged in several interviews that his Dark Willow storyline was a tribute to Dark Phoenix and he certainly did a better job with it than the 3rd X-Men movie managed. That said, I also thought Season 6 was the weakest Buffy season and the characters were all over the place.

Its biggest mistake was not to have Willow turn bad at the start and have her be the main big bad for the season. I don't think having a gay character, especially one who had been treated so sympathetically, turn bad necessarily homophobic. Her reasons for snapping were quite understandable.
Willow snapping wasn't automatically homophobic because she happened to be gay. It was the specific way the writers did it. I think "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" is the term. Steven D Knight (writer, "Seeing Red") even went onto a Willow and Tara fan board and apologised.
I was dubious about Buffy Season 6 when I was 25. But having just watched it again at the age of 33, I've found it one of the best seasons of all. It certainly has some of the most sophisticated moments of humour. And seeing her world fall apart from simple everyday life was an inspired and brave piece of writing for a show obstensibly about vampires and demons. In retrospect it's easy to take that for granted. But when you watch all the series back to back in the space of a few months, you notice just what an achievement it was.
But the show's always been about real life falling apart. It used the vamps and demons as metaphors. The season two Angelus arc was the highlight of this.
How is having a misogynistic bad guy misogynistic in itself? If they had a racist bad guy, would that make the show racist?
No. But if Mr Racist Badguy was combined with a stack of racial and Uncle Tom clichés, it could have unfortunate implications. Context is everything. When Mal from Firefly rolled into Buffy season seven as part of the Whedon welfare check service, the women-hating nut of a preacher gave no unfortunate implications, because the context was different.
Not promptly. You're forgetting a ton of episodes in between there. And she had pretty much no other choice.
Next episode, wasn't it?
They're a couple in a TV show where relationships are doomed and there's no guarantee any character will stay alive. [spoiler='Buffy', "Seeing Red"]Tara wasn't shot for being gay. Hell, she wasn't even shot for being Tara - Warren was trying to get Buffy.[/spoiler]You're really reaching if you think that was homophobic.
See "Gay/Evil Lesbian Cliché", above. No critic said they'd done it intentionally. It was sloppy writing.

I didn't say Buffy, as a series, was homophobic. Just that one cliché.
I am pretty certain you're wrong. Buffy was enormously, enormously popular in criticial circles. I'd bet you a million quid that they did watch it. And, if you think the show was that good, why do you still think it was tokenism?
I'm sure they critics have watched a few episodes. I think they're exaggerating their love for the show, based on the fact that their write-ups tend to be formulaic and stacked with clichés. The cheerleader comment was de rigueur in the Grauniad's "G2" TV pages during later seasons, along with mentioning that the show was set in a high school years after the Buffster had left for (and then dropped out of) college. Don't know if these are online. Will look, later.
Why does the origin of [Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit] make such terrible misogyny and homophobia OK? I mean, if treating women and gay characters badly = misogyny and homophobia, then it doesn't matter what the source material is.
They are, sadly, appropriate for the setting, and an intrinsic part of the story, just as a drama set in the antebellum South is going to feature some less than enlightened attitudes to black Americans. Warren was not an intrinsic part of Buffy, and neither was the nasty relationship they forced on Buffy in season six, which was played variously for laughs, kinks, and drama. I don't for a minute think the Buffy writers intended any of the implications we got. That's what makes them unfortunate.

Put it like this: no one complains that Mississippi Burning features racist characters. But some do complain that it has a bunch of heroic white g-men ride in from up North to save the day. Not because the writers are evil racists, but because it has unfortunate implications.
Yes, I know where Dark Phoenix is from. You said that a certain character's death was a rip-off of Dark Phoenix and I can't see any similarities at all - I certainly can't see how it would be homophobic if there were any similarities.
I was referring to Dark Willow, afterwards. Sorry for any confusion. :)
 
Nothing wrong with police procedurals! The Wire's about the process of getting suspects to trial, and paints a multi-faceted map of Baltimore in the process. All the observations about urban decay, the war on drugs, etc, arise from the procedure. See David Simon's earlier HBO mini-series, The Corner, for a different approach to the same issue.
Sorry, but this is just a daft way to look at anything.

Star Wars is a love story - yep, but . . .

In other words, you're alighting on a tool or mechanism within the work and using that as the defining or overriding characteristic of the whole - Dickens wasn't discussing transport in A Tale of Two Cities.
 
lol, is this post meant to be a joke? I am judging you from your incoherent posts old boy. Ones opinions do say a lot about oneself, and I'm afraid yours reek (sp?) of you projecting your own mysogyny. Sorry.
No joke. I tend not to snigger about posters who accuse me of hating women. Funny that way.

As wind-ups go, it's piss weak, and needlessly souring the whole thread. Either post up a genuine apology, or we've got nothing more to say to each other. :)
 
Why would I bother trying to wind you up? Your posts make me think you are a misogynist, simple as that. Hey ho
 
http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/

Leaving aside the use of the word 'womyn', this is priceless:

First of all, this journal is for women who have a genuine interest in women's rights and commitment to sisterhood. Discussion has always been a vital part of the development of the women's movement. If you disagree with something published here, please don't hesitate to say so unless your opinions fall under the banned comments section. If you do want to engage me in a discussion about something I have posted on my journal, please treat me with respect. You have every right to disagree, you have every right to tell me how and why, but you do not have the right to insult your own intelligence by attempting to insult mine. I am not easily offended and I will merely have a good laugh at your inanity before deleting your comment. So, don't be stupid if you actually want your comment to be published.

Banned Comments

In the future all comments that are:

pro-porn
pro-prostitution
woman-blaming
racist
misogynist
lesbophobic
pro-capitalist
...or otherwise woman-hating

will not be tolerated on this journal and will be automatically deleted.

I love to have good discussions with other women who do not always agree with me. But I will not allow comments that are insulting, woman-hating or potentially silencing of women.

Sorry for the derail, but I genuinely thought that people like this were some kind of parodic invention...

It was the specific way the writers did it. I think "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" is the term. Steven D Knight (writer, "Seeing Red") even went onto a Willow and Tara fan board and apologised.

Sorry, how does that scan?

Willow and Tara had just reconciled, Willow was happy Warren then comes along and (accidentally) shoots Tara. Willow goes apeshit. If Tara had been Willow's BF, would it have been character inconsistent for her to react in the same way? If it was Xander having a relationship with another guy would his having the same reaction be any different? I cannot see the homophobia in actions consistent with the character's history and emotional state. Ridiculous.
 
Sorry, but this is just a daft way to look at anything.

Star Wars is a love story - yep, but . . .
Star Wars is a sci-fi romp that includes a love story. It's not the defining feature of the show.
In other words, you're alighting on a tool or mechanism within the work and using that as the defining or overriding characteristic of the whole - Dickens wasn't discussing transport in A Tale of Two Cities.
The first season of The Wire follows the course of an investigation into the Barksdale set-up, and the fallout from this is a springboard for later seasons. Police (po-lice) procedure is central to the show. So I think "police procedural" is a fair summary. Procedural needn't mean Law & Order, which is a formulaic police/legal procedural (although much good drama arises from the rigidly-followed formula).
 
Why would I bother trying to wind you up? Your posts make me think you are a misogynist, simple as that. Hey ho
If you think calling people misogynistic doesn't tend to wind them up, you have much to learn about people.

You've just accused me of hating women, out the blue, over a TV show. An apology is the least you owe me. If you can bring yourself to do that, highlight the "misogynistic" bit of the post, and on we go. Otherwise, you and me are done here. Simple as.
 
If you think calling people misogynistic doesn't tend to wind them up, you have much to learn about people.

You've just accused me of hating women, out the blue, over a TV show. An apology is the least you owe me. If you can bring yourself to do that, highlight the "misogynistic" bit of the post, and on we go. Otherwise, you and me are done here. Simple as.

I dont care whether it winds you up. Why on earth should I care about hurting the feelings of someone who seems to be a misogynist?

bye, it's you who'll be missing out :)
 
Samurai movie, too. :cool:

Red Sun in Space.

Red_sun_movieposter.jpg
 
Star Wars is not just not really Sci-Fi, it actually is anti-science. Consider lines like, "He's more machine than man now -- twisted and evil." In what way is a machine "twisted and evil"?
 
http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/

Leaving aside the use of the word 'womyn', this is priceless:

First of all, this journal is for women who have a genuine interest in women's rights and commitment to sisterhood. Discussion has always been a vital part of the development of the women's movement. If you disagree with something published here, please don't hesitate to say so unless your opinions fall under the banned comments section. If you do want to engage me in a discussion about something I have posted on my journal, please treat me with respect. You have every right to disagree, you have every right to tell me how and why, but you do not have the right to insult your own intelligence by attempting to insult mine. I am not easily offended and I will merely have a good laugh at your inanity before deleting your comment. So, don't be stupid if you actually want your comment to be published.

Banned Comments

In the future all comments that are:

pro-porn
pro-prostitution
woman-blaming
racist
misogynist
lesbophobic
pro-capitalist
...or otherwise woman-hating

will not be tolerated on this journal and will be automatically deleted.

I love to have good discussions with other women who do not always agree with me. But I will not allow comments that are insulting, woman-hating or potentially silencing of women.


Basically it mean if you disagree in any way she deleted your comments, a few people from the IMDB Buffy Board attempted to talk her round reasonably and got ranted at :D
 
BTW, even before checking his profile, I was fairly certain that that blog would be written by a straight man. A few straight men see homophobia and sexism where all that's happening is female or gay characters being taken seriously, and that's because they don't expect female and gay characters to be taken seriously. They're sexist and homophobic and also really, really stupid. And they make it harder for writers to create good gay and female characters - thanks guys!
You mean they expect female characters to be paragons, and react accordingly if they're not? Maybe so. The nasty old "virgin or s**t" thinking. I don't think that applies to the author of the link, though. It just misses some points.

The article misses the point about Angelus by a country mile. The condemnation weighed on him, not her. (Although Whedon has mischievously said that they punish everyone for being happy.)
 
I dont care whether it winds you up. Why on earth should I care about hurting the feelings of someone who seems to be a misogynist?

bye, it's you who'll be missing out :)
Erm, I'm not wound up, I'm just not going to let your stupid accusations pass. Nor am I going to try and defend myself from something you haven't even backed up.

Tell you what, I'll be charitable. I'll pass on the apology for now. Post up the comments you think are misogynistic, and explain why. In your own words, not those you've borrowed off another poster.
 
True, I found S5 of The Wire to be a massive drop in quality, yet I view the whole thing as brilliant, regardless.

Ditto S3 of Deadwood, S5 of The West Wing, and the final season of The Sopranos.

I block S5 of The Wire out. I focus instead on S1-3, especially S3.

I really liked Deadwood's 3rd season FWIW...agree on S5 of the WW...S6&7 so make up for it tho.
 
Erm, I'm not wound up, I'm just not going to let your stupid accusations pass. Nor am I going to try and defend myself from something you haven't even backed up.

Tell you what, I'll be charitable. I'll pass on the apology for now. Post up the comments you think are misogynistic, and explain why. In your own words, not those you've borrowed off another poster.

naah, I'll get back to the discussion and leave you and your amusing contradictions to yourself.
 
Willow snapping wasn't automatically homophobic because she happened to be gay. It was the specific way the writers did it. I think "Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliché" is the term. Steven D Knight (writer, "Seeing Red") even went onto a Willow and Tara fan board and apologised.

Link to the apology, please? I bet he wasn't actually saying 'sorry for being homophobic.'

You know, Evil Lesbian does exist as a cliche. But was she evil because she was a lesbian? Er, no.

No. But if Mr Racist Badguy was combined with a stack of racial and Uncle Tom clichés, it could have unfortunate implications. Context is everything. When Mal from Firefly rolled into Buffy season seven as part of the Whedon welfare check service, the women-hating nut of a preacher gave no unfortunate implications, because the context was different.



Next episode, wasn't it?

No. Several episodes into the next season after he'd gone and got his sould back so was a different person.

I'm sure they critics have watched a few episodes. I think they're exaggerating their love for the show, based on the fact that their write-ups tend to be formulaic and stacked with clichés. The cheerleader comment was de rigueur in the Grauniad's "G2" TV pages during later seasons, along with mentioning that the show was set in a high school years after the Buffster had left for (and then dropped out of) college. Don't know if these are online. Will look, later.

You know, I don't think the TV listings in G2 were written by TV critics.

They are, sadly, appropriate for the setting, and an intrinsic part of the story, just as a drama set in the antebellum South is going to feature some less than enlightened attitudes to black Americans. Warren was not an intrinsic part of Buffy, and neither was the nasty relationship they forced on Buffy in season six, which was played variously for laughs, kinks, and drama. I don't for a minute think the Buffy writers intended any of the implications we got. That's what makes them unfortunate.

Put it like this: no one complains that Mississippi Burning features racist characters. But some do complain that it has a bunch of heroic white g-men ride in from up North to save the day. Not because the writers are evil racists, but because it has unfortunate implications.

Thanks for making my point for me. Having women and lesbians mistreated was appropriate for the setting of OANTOF. Having everyone treated terribly was appropriate for the setting of Buffy. It's stupid to complain about characters being hurt and killed in a TV series which is about fighting vampires and other evil beings.

Imagine an alternative universe where all the genders in Buffy were reversed. We'd have a strong young man destined to save the world, a young man who's hot and witty as well as practically invincible. Every generation has a man like who saves the world.

He's guided by a stereotypical mother figure who gets knocked out almost every episode and has to be rescued several times. This woman is part of a group that's almost all female and matriarchal. When the male star is no longer as dependent on this mother character she loses her identity and turns to drink. Her BF is killed in a very sexual way. She only becomes strong again once the male character needs her again.

His male best friend is a boy who's nerdy but brilliantly clever, especially at science and maths, and adept at magic - so good that he becomes one of the most powerful magicians in the world. He comes out as gay, which is a huge deal for the type of show, and his relationship is one of the most loving in the show with his BF being a major character too. When his boyfriend gets killed, by a woman who hates men, he turns bad for a single episode. He then controls his magic and stays strong and capable and finishes the season happily in love with another man.

His other best friend is a girl who's nerdy, not good at school stuff, gets hurt a lot, and is so helpless that there's a whole episode about him being the weakest one of the group and that fact is brought up several times in the series. Every time she thinks about kissing a boy, that boy turns out to be bad and tries to kill her. She heartlessly dumps her husband to be and is later blinded. She finises the series weakened, blind, single and depending on her 'heart' for her role in the group.

Then there's the main character's vampire GF. In her human life, she was a drunken slut who lost her soul when she went off to have sex with a stranger. Now, if she has sex, she turns evil. If she stays away from sex, she's a really good person, one of the greatest heroes in the world. The main male star kills her by sticking his big sword in her.

And so on. Sounds a bit misogynistic, doesn't it?

Buffy was the opposite of misogynistic and homophobic.

I was referring to Dark Willow, afterwards. Sorry for any confusion. :)

There's not much of a similarity. Willow goes bad. Jean Grey has an alternative bad persona. Their hair colour changes. That's about it. Note that the TV series didn't call her DarkWillow - that was the fans. And it's still not homophobic.
 
Although Whedon has mischievously said that they punish everyone for being happy

Writer's conceit that tho, and it is applied equally across the board.

I know it's tragic, but for me the saddest of the romance plotlines is

Xander and Anyanka. Xander, for being a cock and listening to D'Hoffryn and dumping her on her wedding day. I *heart* Anya, and never forgave Xander for it
 
Imagine an alternative universe where all the genders in Buffy were reversed. We'd have a strong young man destined to save the world, a young man who's hot and witty as well as practically invincible. Every generation has a man like who saves the world.

He's guided by a stereotypical mother figure who gets knocked out almost every episode and has to be rescued several times. This woman is part of a group that's almost all female and matriarchal. When the male star is no longer as dependent on this mother character she loses her identity and turns to drink. Her BF is killed in a very sexual way. She only becomes strong again once the male character needs her again.

His male best friend is a boy who's nerdy but brilliantly clever, especially at science and maths, and adept at magic - so good that he becomes one of the most powerful magicians in the world. He comes out as gay, which is a huge deal for the type of show, and his relationship is one of the most loving in the show with his BF being a major character too. When his boyfriend gets killed, by a woman who hates men, he turns bad for a single episode. He then controls his magic and stays strong and capable and finishes the season happily in love with another man.

His other best friend is a girl who's nerdy, not good at school stuff, gets hurt a lot, and is so helpless that there's a whole episode about him being the weakest one of the group and that fact is brought up several times in the series. Every time she thinks about kissing a boy, that boy turns out to be bad and tries to kill her. She heartlessly dumps her husband to be and is later blinded. She finises the series weakened, blind, single and depending on her 'heart' for her role in the group.

Then there's the main character's vampire GF. In her human life, she was a drunken slut who lost her soul when she went off to have sex with a stranger. Now, if she has sex, she turns evil. If she stays away from sex, she's a really good person, one of the greatest heroes in the world. The main male star kills her by sticking his big sword in her.

:D

That show would (depressingly) make millions if it was commissioned in the US.
 
naah, I'll get back to the discussion and leave you and your amusing contradictions to yourself.
So you can't back your unhinged accusation of misogyny up, and you haven't the good grace to apologise. Right. Just so we're clear.

Back to the discussion!
 
I know it's tragic, but for me the saddest of the romance plotlines is

Xander and Anyanka. Xander, for being a cock and listening to D'Hoffryn and dumping her on her wedding day. I *heart* Anya, and never forgave Xander for it

Ahem, *geek time*, I believe...

Xander was influenced by a demon (punished by Anyanka), posing as his older self, rather than D'Hoffryn

Oh god I need to do some work....
 
Back
Top Bottom