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The Green Party has some serious questions to answer

Whether "trans is an active component" (you mean relevant I guess?) depends on what you mean by "trans". If you mean people suffering from severe gender dysphoria who want/need to alter their bodies and their gender expression as much as possible to be like the opposite sex (ie what used to be called trans-sexuals), then it would be irrelevant I think. But once you widen the definition of "trans" to "transgender" to mean just about anything, and then make the criteria simple self-id then yes I think it's really relevant. Because one of the arguments against that is that it disregards the safeguarding issue of letting men (ie people with male bodies, male genitalia etc) into women's/girl's spaces so long as those men claim they are female. So to find wide definition trans people like DC and ??AC too? arguing for self-id and getting into positions of power and influence in a national political party to [push that narrative is worrying. Actually what worries and depresses me more are the legions of trendy wannabe progressives who will do their level best to make any querying of this "bigotry".It's not, it's basic fucking safeguarding and anyone who tried to shout down a safeguarding debate in this way should automatically have a warning light go up.

David Challenor is trans - at least by the wide definition. He's also a predatory paedophile who was in tight with the Green Party using his position to push for the right of erotic transvestites and other fetishists to access women's spaces. AC was helping him do that. I feel sorry for transpeople who's reputation is tarnished by these people but paedophiles, molestors, fetishists etc will be like bees round a honeypot on self-id and sure enough - just like the NUS trans rep Jess Bradley (caught with "her" dick out last month) - here they are. Utterly predictable.
"Safeguarding issues"?

Self ID doesn't demand an end to safeguarding or risk assessment. He's not going to be allowed to declare himself trans and get moved straight to a women's prison with no questions asked or precautions taken. The process would take years without any guarantee it would ever be allowed, self ID or no self ID.

He was involved in scouts and children's gymnastics at the time his children were taken into care. They were returned after a social media campaign. That he might try to take advantage of self ID in a situation where he would be regarded as a very serious threat to other inmates is a strange thing to focus on. What did social services and the family court do? What did the scouts and the gym club do? Why do we keep leaving predators free to operate?

Trans people don't deserve to be demonised or collectively punished for a failure to deal with predators, or on the basis of hypotheticals which are extremely unlikely to happen.
 
Trans people don't deserve to be demonised or collectively punished for a failure to deal with predators,

Of course they don't. But anyone, trans or otherwise who tries to stop debates about safeguarding by throwing the accusation of "transphobia" around needs to be called out. Any attempt to shut down a safeguarding debate without discussion should itself be a warning that we are in dangerous territory.

As for "hypotheticals that are extremely unlikely to happen" - that is just complacent bollocks - this thread is about a predatory paedophile & rapist who is also an erotic transvestite; under Stonewall definitions he is transgender - under self-id he has the right to enter women's spaces as a right. How can you so smugly dismiss concerns about that?

You say that "Self ID doesn't demand an end to safeguarding or risk assessment" of course that's true.

But when we are getting mainstream organisations like the Girl Guides saying they are happy for teenage boys to change and shower with teenage girls and then sleep in the same tents as them if the relevant people are cool with the risk assessment BUT when we also know that coercive accusations of "bigotry" and "transphobe" are deeply frightening for many people - then risk assessments go out of the window. And yet this is clearly a massive safeguarding issue - not to mention a huge infringement of young women's space and privacy.

The policy of self ID is a disaster for trans people and a magnet for every fucked up nasty sexual predator.
 
David Challenor committed all his offences as a man. He does not claim to be trans. He did not gain access to any of his victims by presenting as a woman.

Is the Girl Guides policy really that alarming? Would many cis boys pretend to be a trans girl to improve his sexual opportunities? Do predatory teenage boys need to pretend they are teenage girls to get an opportunity to assault them? Are they more or less likely to commit assault when they are the only boy around? Should lesbians be excluded too, just in case?

Of course it's possible. Anything is possible. But is the hypothetical risk so credible that all trans girls need to be thrown under the bus? Should they attend scouts instead? As themselves or as someone they are not?

How are these fears any different from the homophobic myths thrown around last century?
 
I don't understand the world anymore. I can't decide who's right in the whole trans/terf shitstorm. I sort of think they both are but that can't be right.

And this whole depressing drama is as bizarre as it is disturbing.
 
..David Challenor is trans - at least by the wide definition. He's also a predatory paedophile who was in tight with the Green Party using his position to push for the right of erotic transvestites and other fetishists to access women's spaces. AC was helping him do that.

If true, this is certainly concerning, but given the polarised nature of the whole debate currently, I think you need to provide evidence for these assertions rather than just expect the rest of us to accept them on trust.

How, specifically and with sources, was David Challenor using his position within the Green Party to push for the right of erotic transvestites and other fetishists to access women's spaces?

And how, specifically and with sources, was Aimee Challenor helping him do that?
 
If true, this is certainly concerning, but given the polarised nature of the whole debate currently, I think you need to provide evidence for these assertions rather than just expect the rest of us to accept them on trust.

How, specifically and with sources, was David Challenor using his position within the Green Party to push for the right of erotic transvestites and other fetishists to access women's spaces?

And how, specifically and with sources, was Aimee Challenor helping him do that?

DC is trans by the new wide definition which is promoted by groups like Stonewall - he's what they call an erotic transvestite and is therefore - according to them - transgendered. The court evidence makes it clear that he was cross dressing while he was raping and torturing a 10 year old. He demanded that she call him "Lucy".

I don't need to show with sources etc that they were promoting the right of erotic TVs into women's spaces; its open public info. Stonewall, the Green Party, just-about-everyone also promote self-id which would allow DC & AC (100%, by definition, but also any man who self-ids) into women-only spaces. What could possibly go wrong with that?


More specifically both AC and DC were computer whizzes who helped create terf-blocker which helped to isolate non-TRAs from any arguments or discussion that wasn't 100% supportive of their personal agenda. It's also been pointed out that it also allowed them (if they wanted) to hide the case against DC becoming publicly known within the circle of useful twitter-idiots who pop up and parrot the usual mantras that "transidentities are not up for debate" etc

AC was the LGBTQIA spokesperson for the Green Party and was pretty handy with writs and injunctions against anyone who spoke out against the TRA free-for-all. Source; twitter, from some of the people who had legal actions taken against them, and I can't cite those because I am now blocked from twitter, because of speaking out on this issue - although the worst that I can recall saying was an outburst where I said "the reactions of some people to this case is a fucking disgrace" or similar. But TRAs do love to shut people up by any means at their disposal. Almost like they have something to hide.
 
David Challenor committed all his offences as a man. He does not claim to be trans. He did not gain access to any of his victims by presenting as a woman.

Correct. Safeguarding is notoriously difficult. So we use some broad-brush methods to reduce risks, even though that imposes obligations and burdens on the innocent. Like DBS checks etc. One of those broad brushes is single sex spaces - and we know that this is not to protect men from women and children but the other way round, right? To protect women and children from men. Doesn't stop female abusers (one reason - eg - why male abusers often seek out female allies, or single parents) but stops male abusers and they are the clear biggest issue,

When you argue for self-id you are arguing for people like David Challenor to have access to women's showers, changing rooms, toilets, refuges. That's an obvious safeguarding risk - bloody obvious. And it's also one that it has been almost literally taboo to raise or talk about; it has been shut down with this bogus allegation of "transphobia". As I said on an earlier post, that in itself should raise eyebrows.



Is the Girl Guides policy really that alarming? Would many cis boys pretend to be a trans girl to improve his sexual opportunities? Do predatory teenage boys need to pretend they are teenage girls to get an opportunity to assault them? Are they more or less likely to commit assault when they are the only boy around? Should lesbians be excluded too, just in case?

Of course it's possible. Anything is possible. But is the hypothetical risk so credible that all trans girls need to be thrown under the bus? Should they attend scouts instead? As themselves or as someone they are not?

Would cis boys pretend to be a "transgirl" to improve his sexual opportunities? My guess is no, not in any planned meaningful way.

But would a teenage boy, confused about his sexuality and his sexual identity, full of raging lust hormones, not totally in mature control of himself or his urges, and repelled by the absurd shouty bullshit gender role that he is expected to play out take advantage of his situation spontaneously? Well there's only one answer; inevitably some will. Especially if they have had their new-found identity lionised and over-valorised and told they are wonderful and should just be whoever they are because nothing (least of all the competing needs of teenage girls) should get in the way of that.

This is at least partly why it's a safeguarding issue; when we do this, we are putting this teenage boys at risk too. How on earth can they make sensible decisions, at all times, in this situation? It's literally asking too much of them.

And what about the girls? You didn't mention them or their needs. Not interested in that?
 
DC is trans by the new wide definition which is promoted by groups like Stonewall - he's what they call an erotic transvestite and is therefore - according to them - transgendered. The court evidence makes it clear that he was cross dressing while he was raping and torturing a 10 year old. He demanded that she call him "Lucy".

I don't need to show with sources etc that they were promoting the right of erotic TVs into women's spaces; its open public info. Stonewall, the Green Party, just-about-everyone also promote self-id which would allow DC & AC (100%, by definition, but also any man who self-ids) into women-only spaces. What could possibly go wrong with that?


More specifically both AC and DC were computer whizzes who helped create terf-blocker which helped to isolate non-TRAs from any arguments or discussion that wasn't 100% supportive of their personal agenda. It's also been pointed out that it also allowed them (if they wanted) to hide the case against DC becoming publicly known within the circle of useful twitter-idiots who pop up and parrot the usual mantras that "transidentities are not up for debate" etc

AC was the LGBTQIA spokesperson for the Green Party and was pretty handy with writs and injunctions against anyone who spoke out against the TRA free-for-all. Source; twitter, from some of the people who had legal actions taken against them, and I can't cite those because I am now blocked from twitter, because of speaking out on this issue - although the worst that I can recall saying was an outburst where I said "the reactions of some people to this case is a fucking disgrace" or similar. But TRAs do love to shut people up by any means at their disposal. Almost like they have something to hide.
So you have no sources for your claims. Fair enough, we can draw our own conclusions
 
So you have no sources for your claims. Fair enough, we can draw our own conclusions

:rolleyes:

I can’t be bothered with this kind of tit for tat. Life’s too short. Say what you think is false in what I posted - if that’s what you think. Otherwise forget it.
 
:rolleyes:

I can’t be bothered with this kind of tit for tat. Life’s too short. Say what you think is false in what I posted - if that’s what you think. Otherwise forget it.
All your claims might be correct, but if you can't or won't back them up with actual sourced info, they're not worth discussing, and you look like you're not worth taking seriously.
 
I had only seen the BBC article, which was mainly focused on Aimee Challenor rather than her father's crimes, but just found this article...

A court heard how the 50-year-old would dress up as a small girl in adult-sized baby dresses and nappies before carrying out the attacks at his home.

Challenor had "various sexual fetishes and fantasies" and when the victim was at his home he took her to the attic where he asked her “to do things to him” including performing oral sex.

Man held 10-year-old girl captive in ‘torture den’ attic as he played out sadomasochistic fantasies
 
So you have no sources for your claims.

Fair enough, we can draw our own conclusions

“So you have no sources for your claims” = false inference presented as a fact.

“We can draw our own conclusions” = the Royal “we”? Or the usual gaslighty “you are the only one who thinks like this, you are all on your own, I speak for everyone here”?


All your claims might be correct, but if you can't or won't back them up with actual sourced info, they're not worth discussing, and you look like you're not worth taking seriously.

Dismiss, deride, ignore. This is all so familiar.
 
Andy, if you like I can probably find links, screenshots for all those assertions, and will on behalf of co-op if you like.

However, it's my wedding anniversary today so it'll have to wait until tomorrow. And I'm on holiday so I may not be fucked to trawl through the Internet even tomorrow. :thumbs:

If you want I'll provide the deets, but likely you'll have to wait a few days. :)
 
I don't understand the world anymore. I can't decide who's right in the whole trans/terf shitstorm. I sort of think they both are but that can't be right.

And this whole depressing drama is as bizarre as it is disturbing.

It doesn’t help that IDPol is saturated with fast-changing jargon which only the super in-crowd can stay on top of - after a point it seemed clear to me that this (consciously or unconsciously) deliberate. It literally makes it impossible for any ordinary observer to join in and “educate themselves” as TRAs are always demanding. Who has the time? I still struggle to remember half of it and I’ve been in this awful debate for years. Always have to go and look up “truscum”, it’s just odd.
 
Andy, if you like I can probably find links, screenshots for all those assertions, and will on behalf of co-op if you like.

However, it's my wedding anniversary today so it'll have to wait until tomorrow. And I'm on holiday so I may not be fucked to trawl through the Internet even tomorrow. :thumbs:

If you want I'll provide the deets, but likely you'll have to wait a few days. :)
Appreciated, but as far as I'm concerned it's co-op 's responsibility to back up their claims. If they won't that reduces their credibility, even if their claims are subsequently backed up by someone else giving properly sourced info.

Enjoy your anniversary
 
A statement from the Trustees of Coventry Pride

August 28 2018

We, the trustees of Coventry Pride, were deeply shocked to learn of the actions of Mr David Challenor as concluded by the court. The safety and welfare of children in our society must be paramount. May we offer our heartfelt thoughts and prayers to the child and family.

Mr Challenor volunteered for the Charity in 2015 and 2016 he assisted with event set up and take down, and designing some posters and leaflets. The Trustees were made aware of criminal proceedings being taken against Mr Challenor in November 2016. A directive was issued to those responsible for volunteer recruitment that Mr Challenor was not to be accepted as a volunteer at the Charity’s events and if he attended public events organised by the Charity he was monitored by the trustees. Mr Challenor no longer has any links with the Charity.
A statement from the Trustees of Coventry Pride

So, Coventry Pride was aware of the situation back in 2016 & took steps.
 
I would have thought that someone would have mentioned it to the party, I assume Pride were aware of his involvement with them.
yeh. perhaps lots of people thought that. don't know why you think pride were aware of yer man's involvement with the greens.

of course it wouldn't be the first time the green party had nonces in their ranks, as hackney residents with long memories will recall.
 
yeh. perhaps lots of people thought that. don't know why you think pride were aware of yer man's involvement with the greens.

Because there seems to have been a fair bit of cross-over between the two, with both of the Challenor's being involved in both, Aimee is listed as a trustee of Coventry Pride, in the Green Party's announcement of her standing for them.

Coventry Greens announce their three candidates for 2017 general election

Of course, it's possible that no one in Pride decided to inform the leadership of the Greens, assuming someone else had or would.
 
I don't understand the world anymore. I can't decide who's right in the whole trans/terf shitstorm. I sort of think they both are but that can't be right.

And this whole depressing drama is as bizarre as it is disturbing.

The TERFS are *all* wrong but that doesn't make everything else right.

DC is trans by the new wide definition which is promoted by groups like Stonewall - he's what they call an erotic transvestite and is therefore - according to them - transgendered. The court evidence makes it clear that he was cross dressing while he was raping and torturing a 10 year old. He demanded that she call him "Lucy".

I don't need to show with sources etc that they were promoting the right of erotic TVs into women's spaces; its open public info. Stonewall, the Green Party, just-about-everyone also promote self-id which would allow DC & AC (100%, by definition, but also any man who self-ids) into women-only spaces. What could possibly go wrong with that?

Mate. You do need to show some evidence of what you're claiming actually - where is this self id thing coming from? Stonewall are a group who up until very recently referred to themselves as representing LGB - not trans people, they were specifically exluded. I don't know what daft, shitty politics Stonewall are putting out and don't much care, but it's pretty out of order to use Stonewall to criticise "TRA's" as you term them - Stonewall have had nothing to do with the struggle for trans rights.

I haven't seen anyone - Greens, Stonewall or otherwise - seriously arguing for self id. If you're claiming you have then show some evidence.

I feel sorry for transpeople who's reputation is tarnished by these people but paedophiles, molestors, fetishists etc will be like bees round a honeypot on self-id and sure enough - just like the NUS trans rep Jess Bradley (caught with "her" dick out last month) - here they are. Utterly predictable.

This is fucking seriously shitty and duplicitious - you've written here that a trans woman was "caught with "her" dick out" last month and that's not what happened is it? Bradley was suspended for posting explicit pictures on her blog: NUS Trans Officer suspended over claims she posted explicit photographs of a person flashing

Out of fucking order. I hope you're gonna apologise.

David Challenor committed all his offences as a man. He does not claim to be trans. He did not gain access to any of his victims by presenting as a woman.

Just wanna restate and add to this. Nobody has shown any evidence that this sadistic child rapist has at any point claimed to self identify as trans. Those of you attempting to use the rape of a child as a stick to beat trans people with, it's fucking LOW.
 
I'm too tired to join in the debate today myself, but surely nobody actually wants evidence that people are arguing for self ID? You haven't seen anyone arguing for that? :confused: It's part of the proposed changes to the gender recognition act.
 
I also feel sorry for Aimee Challenor, and I hope this is the start of a long period of reflection.

But I have absolutely no sympathy at all for the Green Party - this is a spectacular failure of duty of care and could have had even worse outcomes.

And all while an inquiry into high profile child abuse is going on.

Right, this is not an excuse (regarding party oversight and duty of care), but a highly likely explanation: GPEW local parties are largely autonomous and often run on a shoestring in terms of finance and people. Such is the lack of capacity that a lack of background checks on agents (not a role for which there is generally a large queue) is almost inevitable. Her judgement has obviously been shit and I expect the party will instigate or recommend more thorough checks in future (I don't know what practice is in other parties of various sizes).

As a lapsed member, former candidate and agent I am not surprised that the holes were there for this to happen. I expect it will be dealt with, even if it will still rely on people's honesty (do other parties ask for e.g DBS checks for agents / candidates?) I think they just ask and expect an honest reply of candidates, but I really don't know about checks into agents at all. Thanks for any answers to these questions.
 
I'm too tired to join in the debate today myself, but surely nobody actually wants evidence that people are arguing for self ID? You haven't seen anyone arguing for that? :confused: It's part of the proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

What do you mean by self id? The proposed changes involve getting rid of a panel that determines whether or not someone is 'legitimately' trans. But there's no suggestion that you don't still have to register as transgender with relevant health and legal authorities.

Co-op is using a case of a vile paedophile who has at no point attempted to claim trans status as evidence that self-id (not a term I've heard used) is a terrible idea; see below where they straight up say that self id means any sex offender could walk into a womens shower and rape someone.

When you argue for self-id you are arguing for people like David Challenor to have access to women's showers, changing rooms, toilets, refuges.

Now I don't know what you mean by self id but Co-op is suggesting self id means anyone could walk into a women only space without registering their preferred gender with a doctor, on their passport or any other legal body. I have seen nobody that I consider to have anything serious to say on the subject suggest thats what changes to the gender recognition act should mean. Have you seen this from any of the organisations Co-op claims?
 
It's probably why Aimee, illegally, didn't put her Dad's real name on the election leaflets and instead put Baloo, a nickname he had used when working with kids. That's something that really should have been spotted by other people at the Green Party.

Just seen this, and yes...absolutely.
 
I'm too tired to join in the debate today myself, but surely nobody actually wants evidence that people are arguing for self ID? You haven't seen anyone arguing for that? :confused: It's part of the proposed changes to the gender recognition act.

To be fair, what posts like SpackleFrog s show is that many people just don't know where we are in this debate. Self ID is the big question and is clearly being lobbied for very very hard by nearly all of the various LBGTQIA official bodies and the GP. This is precisely why there is so much shit flying around on this topic right now - the official consultation is out and people are fighting over what the govt are going to recommend

I haven't time for this today either. But I'm amazed that anyone has missed this point. There you go.
 
This is fucking seriously shitty and duplicitious - you've written here that a trans woman was "caught with "her" dick out" last month and that's not what happened is it? Bradley was suspended for posting explicit pictures on her blog: NUS Trans Officer suspended over claims she posted explicit photographs of a person flashing

Out of fucking order. I hope you're gonna apologise.
.


I put the "her" in quotes because I can't seriously say "her dick" - it's just ridiculous; women don't have dicks. But it is what happened isn't it? JB is an exhibitionist who likes flashing "her" penis in public spaces, unless I have completely misunderstood the photos and the allegations. If it's the latter of course I would withdraw the accusation but JB hasn't denied it that I have seen.
 
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