The Green Party has some serious questions to answer

[crossthebreeze]

If you've read much about the case then you'd find it extremely hard to believe she didn't believe he was guilty:

I think there are many possible reasons why she wouldn't believe he was guilty - ordinary denial for one, and all the psychological effects that come with having a dad who is a manipulative lying abuser. Obviously, even if she thought he was innocent or didn't know everything that he was up for, it was more than stupid to use him as an election agent, and its dodgy about using his nicknames.

Its totally shit that her trans status is being bought into this by the papers.

I agree with HoratioCuthburt that I hope she works it out in the end.

I think the green party need to examine if there is any way they could of known about the arrest and trial before hand, and if there were any signs they should have spotted about his behaviour.

I hope he rots.

 

[weepiper]

I think there are many possible reasons why she wouldn't believe he was guilty - ordinary denial for one, and all the psychological effects that come with having a dad who is a manipulative lying abuser. Obviously, even if she thought he was innocent or didn't know everything that he was up for, it was more than stupid to use him as an election agent, and its dodgy about using his nicknames.

Its totally shit that her trans status is being bought into this by the papers.

I agree with HoratioCuthburt that I hope she works it out in the end.

I think the green party need to examine if there is any way they could of known about the arrest and trial before hand, and if there were any signs they should have spotted about his behaviour.

I hope he rots.

They could have known about it if Aimee had told them, seeing as she was questioned by the police about it in 2015. I would imagine she was very conflicted about all of it but thinking it would all just go away if she ignored it is desperately naive.

 

[scifisam]

I think there are many possible reasons why she wouldn't believe he was guilty - ordinary denial for one, and all the psychological effects that come with having a dad who is a manipulative lying abuser. Obviously, even if she thought he was innocent or didn't know everything that he was up for, it was more than stupid to use him as an election agent, and its dodgy about using his nicknames.

I'm sure he has fucked her up in many ways, poor kid. But the thing is there were photographs. Denial after being confronted with that amount of evidence is not ordinary at all. Hope she's getting some proper support now.

 

[Smoking kills]

Poor kid.
I'm glad they were believed, and someone listened and did something.
Poor Aimee too.
Fuck the G.P. tho. Their office was a crime scene, their local election boss is banged up.

 

[crossthebreeze]

I'm sure he has fucked her up in many ways, poor kid. But the thing is there were photographs. Denial after being confronted with that amount of evidence is not ordinary at all. Hope she's getting some proper support now.

Possibly she was never confronted with the evidence. If she was interviewed by police it would be about them getting evidence form her, not about her being told about the details of offences - and her dad could have kept a huge amount of the details of the case (including additional charges) from her until the trial fairly easily. Only if she had attended trial (or if there had been media reports) would she have definitely known what the evidence was - and I've no idea about the length of the trial or gap between trial and sentencing.

 

[scifisam]

Possibly she was never confronted with the evidence. If she was interviewed by police it would be about them getting evidence form her, not about her being told about the details of offences - and her dad could have kept a huge amount of the details of the case (including additional charges) from her until the trial fairly easily. Only if she had attended trial (or if there had been media reports) would she have definitely known what the evidence was - and I've no idea about the length of the trial or gap between trial and sentencing.

Early on I expect that was true, though the attic where they found all the torture equipment was in the house she was living in, so she can hardly have been kept out of the loop on that one (by the police, I mean - I'm not saying she knew about the abuse beforehand).

I'm sympathetic to her but I'm not going to make up implausible excuses for her as well.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Possibly she was never confronted with the evidence. If she was interviewed by police it would be about them getting evidence form her, not about her being told about the details of offences - and her dad could have kept a huge amount of the details of the case (including additional charges) from her until the trial fairly easily. Only if she had attended trial (or if there had been media reports) would she have definitely known what the evidence was - and I've no idea about the length of the trial or gap between trial and sentencing.

Yep, this. I went to school with someone whose granddad was in prison for murdering some women I think but she’d been told he was in a fight in a pub. Then one day we went to the library with the school in the reference section - something like that the details are hazy- and she went and looked her granddad up. Then started showing everyone what she had found. I remember reading the first paragraph and putting it aside while she and others in the class read the whole thing. But it didn’t seem to register to her what she was reading or the others so much, they were all kind of acting like it was something in a newspaper about someone they didn’t know. Which is what denial is really, not a conscious choice, not going around telling everyone it’s not true, just a huge buffer between yourself and the information in front of you, cause it’s a little too much for you to process all at once- which means you are very likely to behave as if you hadn’t just seen it. And potentially carry on doing so for years.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

PS: I’m not just speaking anecdotally, done some mental health training too though I don’t sound academic right now

 

[scifisam]

Yep, this. I went to school with someone whose granddad was in prison for murdering some women I think but she’d been told he was in a fight in a pub. Then one day we went to the library with the school in the reference section - something like that the details are hazy- and she went and looked her granddad up. Then started showing everyone what she had found. I remember reading the first paragraph and putting it aside while she and others in the class read the whole thing. But it didn’t seem to register to her what she was reading or the others so much, they were all kind of acting like it was something in a newspaper about someone they didn’t know. Which is what denial is really, not a conscious choice, not going around telling everyone it’s not true, just a huge buffer between yourself and the information in front of you, cause it’s a little too much for you to process all at once- which means you are very likely to behave as if you hadn’t just seen it. And potentially carry on doing so for years.

The phrase I disagreed with was "ordinary denial." I doubt you think that this level of denial after this amount of evidence would be "ordinary." I don't really think a young adult living in the same house where the offences were committed, the house where evidence was found by police while she was living there, is the same as a child decades ago (when there was less easy access to information) not knowing about something her grandfather had done.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

The phrase I disagreed with was "ordinary denial." I doubt you think that this level of denial after this amount of evidence would be "ordinary." I don't really think a young adult living in the same house where the offences were committed, the house where evidence was found by police while she was living there, is the same as a child decades ago (when there was less easy access to information) not knowing about something her grandfather had done.

I would say the level of denial when encountering something even more traumatic regarding your own father would potentially be more severe? Given even people with just generalised anxiety issues can go into a state similar to being stoned aka “depersonalisation” on a bad day. Of course the denial isn’t ordinary, it’s a situation most of us would never expect to encounter.

 

[Wilf]

I'd obviously agree that the press are twats bringing her trans status in.

I'd add that I don't actually give a shit about whether the GP suspend her, though I would say they probably knew the police were at least investigating (from the timeline and the links scifisam has posted).

As to Aimee herself, I take the point about her being conflicted, the different stages of denial and the rest. So, fair enough in a sense at the time, though the 'Baloo' thing suggests she was actually savvy enough to disguise his identity on the form. What I would say though is after the trial she would have been 100% clear, the scales would have fallen away, no excuses - she knew her father was a sadistic nonce. Call me judgemental, but I'd have thought public apologies would have been her priority rather than 'no commenting' and clinging on to some shitty political career.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I'd obviously agree that the press are twats bringing her trans status in.

I'd add that I don't actually give a shit about whether the GP suspend her, though I would say they probably knew the police were at least investigating (from the timeline and the links scifisam has posted).

As to Aimee herself, I take the point about her being conflicted, the different stages of denial and the rest. So, fair enough in a sense at the time, though the 'Baloo' thing suggests she was actually savvy enough to disguise his identity on the form. What I would say though is after the trial she would have been 100% clear, the scales would have fallen away, no excuses - she knew her father was a sadistic nonce. Call me judgemental, but I'd have thought public apologies would have been her priority rather than 'no commenting' and clinging on to some shitty political career.

The thing about being somewhat mentally compromised though is it doesn’t mean you no longer have the ability to be savvy. I have this argument with people where I work all the time, where people suffer profound memory problems, anxiety issues, maybe ever physical issues such as being partially sighted- but one instance of savvyness means all of it must be a lie. It’s really complicated that sort of thing and difficult to put down in black and white cause it’s like how do you ever know how compromised and able a person is really.
I know that’s not what you mean, but I hope you see what I mean. She’s a 20 year old girl that’s found out her dad is a monster FFS. So for that reason I simply choose to not issue a judgement either way, because I have no idea what that does. Why is that never an option? Oh yeah it’s urban

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

In other words, the fact that knows putting her dad down would be problematic doesn’t mean she’s processed anything properly. And what’s happening at home, was she told to do it?

 

[scifisam]

The thing about being somewhat mentally compromised though is it doesn’t mean you no longer have the ability to be savvy. I have this argument with people where I work all the time, where people suffer profound memory problems, anxiety issues, maybe ever physical issues such as being partially sighted- but one instance of savvyness means all of it must be a lie. It’s really complicated that sort of thing and difficult to put down in black and white cause it’s like how do you ever know how compromised and able a person is really.
I know that’s not what you mean, but I hope you see what I mean. She’s a 20 year old girl that’s found out her dad is a monster FFS. So for that reason I simply choose to not issue a judgement either way, because I have no idea what that does. Why is that never an option? Oh yeah it’s urban

Well, it certainly doesn't sound like she'd be mentally stable enough for political leadership (at least not now). Not sure you can say you're not making a judgment either way, when you say she's mentally compromised. That is a judgment, isn't it?

Course, we're mostly in agreement here, all mostly feeling sympathy for her. But we have to disagree anyway cos, like you say, it's urban

 

[xenon]

I'd obviously agree that the press are twats bringing her trans status in.

I'd add that I don't actually give a shit about whether the GP suspend her, though I would say they probably knew the police were at least investigating (from the timeline and the links scifisam has posted).

As to Aimee herself, I take the point about her being conflicted, the different stages of denial and the rest. So, fair enough in a sense at the time, though the 'Baloo' thing suggests she was actually savvy enough to disguise his identity on the form. What I would say though is after the trial she would have been 100% clear, the scales would have fallen away, no excuses - she knew her father was a sadistic nonce. Call me judgemental, but I'd have thought public apologies would have been her priority rather than 'no commenting' and clinging on to some shitty political career.

Standard career politician then.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Well, it certainly doesn't sound like she'd be mentally stable enough for political leadership (at least not now). Not sure you can say you're not making a judgment either way, when you say she's mentally compromised. That is a judgment, isn't it?

Course, we're mostly in agreement here, all mostly feeling sympathy for her. But we have to disagree anyway cos, like you say, it's urban

I can’t remember the last time someone entering the world of politics was stable enough for leadership

You know what I mean though, this stuff is out of her hands and you can bet he wasn’t so good to her either.
It would be a shame for her to be fucked over rest of her life over it. It’s just a mess, I hope he meets a swift end and soon.

 

[Wilf]

In other words, the fact that knows putting her dad down would be problematic doesn’t mean she’s processed anything properly. And what’s happening at home, was she told to do it?

I'm sure there's a long and complex back story, not much of it good, as alluded to in the press stories. The Baloo thing is ambiguous, it could be her distancing from him, it could be him making her keep him as agent so as not show disloyalty, a lot of things. That's all speculation, but I'd go with a further bit to suggest she's been fucked up by the whole thing herself. My annoyance is more at this week and 'no commenting', in the case of a child who has been raped and tortured. Well, not even that, more an apparent no commenting to save her career.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

M

I'm sure there's a long and complex back story, not much of it good, as alluded to in the press stories. The Baloo thing is ambiguous, it could be her distancing from him, it could be him making her keep him as agent so as not show disloyalty, a lot of things. That's all speculation, but I'd go with a further bit to suggest she's been fucked up by the whole thing herself. My annoyance is more at this week and 'no commenting', in the case of a child who has been raped and tortured. Well, not even that, more an apparent no commenting to save her career.

I’ve written a few responses to this but I’m no longer sure how much is lucid and how much is projection. I would think her silence is way more complicated than career saving. Fucking hell i’ve known some pampered brats in my time, but they aren’t actually lizards. She’s a bairn really.

Night night URBAN!

 

[maomao]

She's a kid and her dad is a violently abusive paedophile. What are the chances that she hasn't experienced some manifestation of his behaviour herself?

 

[baldrick]

Just what I was thinking maomao. She was taken into care as a child, I think it's fairly clear her childhood was quite shit.

I feel very sorry for her. Yes she has fucked up, but she's a young person with spectacularly awful, abusive parents. I hope she manages to move on from all this.

 

[Wilf]

She's a kid and her dad is a violently abusive paedophile. What are the chances that she hasn't experienced some manifestation of his behaviour herself?

Despite my annoyance at her over the deputy leadership thing, that was my take on it too. It's speculation too far to actually state he abused her (which I know you are not doing) but certainly she will have been (deeply) affected by it. My annoyance is purely at trying to keep deputy leadership bid going in the circumstances of the horror revealed about the victim of his crimes. And I'm not saying that family members of monsters should have to withdraw from public roles, it's just that her father is actually tied up in the green party thing over the election role.

I think it's interesting that the press seem to be pushing the 'she must have known' line, for example the grauniad:
Greens rising star quits deputy leader race after father jailed for rape
… with the 'she lived in the same small house' stuff - followed immediately by her statement that she didn't live there all the time. By the by, I'm not agreeing with them. In fact they seem to be pushing their luck with that line.

 

[comrade spurski]

If you've read much about the case then you'd find it extremely hard to believe she didn't believe he was guilty:



Man held 10-year-old girl captive in ‘torture den’ attic as he played out sadomasochistic fantasies

This is not just a he-said, she-said story.

It's probably why Aimee, illegally, didn't put her Dad's real name on the election leaflets and instead put Baloo, a nickname he had used when working with kids. That's something that really should have been spotted by other people at the Green Party. And obviously it's very good grounds for suspending her so she's lucky that hasn't happened.

I do feel sorry for her, but she's made massive misjudgements here, not little ones. And I wonder at the people encouraging such a young person to stand for deputy leader - why not give her a chance to learn a bit about life first?

I haven't read about the father's abuse court case ... find reading ghat stuff a bit much cos I work with vulnerable kids so it's a bit like a busmans holiday kind of thing.
The point of my post was simply giving an opinion as to why she may have behaved as she did rather than to correct others but I guess I xame across differently to that.

In my experience loved ones of abusers sometimes simply can not believe they are capable of such cruelty.

You may be right though as, like I said, I was just kind of giving an opinion.

 

[comrade spurski]

If you've read much about the case then you'd find it extremely hard to believe she didn't believe he was guilty:



Man held 10-year-old girl captive in ‘torture den’ attic as he played out sadomasochistic fantasies

This is not just a he-said, she-said story.

It's probably why Aimee, illegally, didn't put her Dad's real name on the election leaflets and instead put Baloo, a nickname he had used when working with kids. That's something that really should have been spotted by other people at the Green Party. And obviously it's very good grounds for suspending her so she's lucky that hasn't happened.

I do feel sorry for her, but she's made massive misjudgements here, not little ones. And I wonder at the people encouraging such a young person to stand for deputy leader - why not give her a chance to learn a bit about life first?

I haven't read about the father's abuse court case ... find reading ghat stuff a bit much cos I work with vulnerable kids so it's a bit like a busmans holiday kind of thing.
The point of my post was simply giving an opinion as to why she may have behaved as she did rather than to correct others but I guess I xame across differently to that.

In my experience loved ones of abusers sometimes simply can not believe they are capable of such cruelty.

You may be right though as, like I said, I was just kind of giving an opinion.

 

[co-op]

I'd obviously agree that the press are twats bringing her trans status in.
.

Why? Both AC and DC have campaigned for the removal of sex-based protections that provide some safeguards for women and children from predatory male paedophiles. They've done that using the umbrella of "trans rights". Technically DC actually *is* trans - at least according to the Stonewall definition (he's an "erotic transvestite"). He put on a dress while raping children and called himself Lucy.

What's the betting that he's going to shortly publicly announce that he's TG too? There's nothing like 22 years on the nonce wing vs 22 years in a women's prison with a chance to act out some more rapey fun with other inmates to concentrate the mind.

The fact that AC has also been the Chair of LGBTetc Greens and the Party's national equalities officer and in that role was busy organising campaigns to silence anyone questioning the lunatic end of TRA ideology is clearly directly relevant to AC's claim to be trans. What's amazing is how little publicity the case has received; barely mentioned in the liberal end of the press.

Anyone who doesn't feel some sympathy with AC would not be human. That's one fucked up family. But AC has pretty fucked-up ideas and is trying to normalise them through the GP and useful fools who are desperately running around now trying to prove what great "allies" they are. The whole thing disgusts me.

 

[Wilf]

Why? Both AC and DC have campaigned for the removal of sex-based protections that provide some safeguards for women and children from predatory male paedophiles. They've done that using the umbrella of "trans rights". Technically DC actually *is* trans - at least according to the Stonewall definition (he's an "erotic transvestite"). He put on a dress while raping children and called himself Lucy.

What's the betting that he's going to shortly publicly announce that he's TG too? There's nothing like 22 years on the nonce wing vs 22 years in a women's prison with a chance to act out some more rapey fun with other inmates to concentrate the mind.

The fact that AC has also been the Chair of LGBTetc Greens and the Party's national equalities officer and in that role was busy organising campaigns to silence anyone questioning the lunatic end of TRA ideology is clearly directly relevant to AC's claim to be trans. What's amazing is how little publicity the case has received; barely mentioned in the liberal end of the press.

Anyone who doesn't feel some sympathy with AC would not be human. That's one fucked up family. But AC has pretty fucked-up ideas and is trying to normalise them through the GP and useful fools who are desperately running around now trying to prove what great "allies" they are. The whole thing disgusts me.

But I very much doubt that any of that was foremost in the minds of the media when they raised her trans status.

 

[co-op]

But I very much doubt that any of that was foremost in the minds of the media when they raised her trans status.

Trans father of trans/equality officer for national party who has campaigned for more freedom for men to self-id as women and gain access to women's spaces is found guilty of paedophile rape? Seems like a bit of a no-brainer to join that all up. That's what newspapers do. They may not be interested beyond prurience or how they can use it to clobber the left but the story writes itself. The idea that AC's being trans is 'irrelevant' is absurd.

 

[Wilf]

Trans father of trans/equality officer for national party who has campaigned for more freedom for men to self-id as women and gain access to women's spaces is found guilty of paedophile rape? Seems like a bit of a no-brainer to join that all up. That's what newspapers do. They may not be interested beyond prurience or how they can use it to clobber the left but the story writes itself. The idea that AC's being trans is 'irrelevant' is absurd.

My take is the underlined bit is what is in play. I'm just wondering how much you are 'joining it all up' i.e. putting trans into the story of the assault, as an active component? I'm making no accusation, just asking if that's what you mean.

 

[co-op]

I'm just wondering how much you are 'joining it all up' i.e. putting trans into the story of the assault, as an active component?

Whether "trans is an active component" (you mean relevant I guess?) depends on what you mean by "trans". If you mean people suffering from severe gender dysphoria who want/need to alter their bodies and their gender expression as much as possible to be like the opposite sex (ie what used to be called trans-sexuals), then it would be irrelevant I think. But once you widen the definition of "trans" to "transgender" to mean just about anything, and then make the criteria simple self-id then yes I think it's really relevant. Because one of the arguments against that is that it disregards the safeguarding issue of letting men (ie people with male bodies, male genitalia etc) into women's/girl's spaces so long as those men claim they are female. So to find wide definition trans people like DC and ??AC too? arguing for self-id and getting into positions of power and influence in a national political party to [push that narrative is worrying. Actually what worries and depresses me more are the legions of trendy wannabe progressives who will do their level best to make any querying of this "bigotry".It's not, it's basic fucking safeguarding and anyone who tried to shout down a safeguarding debate in this way should automatically have a warning light go up.

David Challenor is trans - at least by the wide definition. He's also a predatory paedophile who was in tight with the Green Party using his position to push for the right of erotic transvestites and other fetishists to access women's spaces. AC was helping him do that. I feel sorry for transpeople who's reputation is tarnished by these people but paedophiles, molestors, fetishists etc will be like bees round a honeypot on self-id and sure enough - just like the NUS trans rep Jess Bradley (caught with "her" dick out last month) - here they are. Utterly predictable.

 

[campanula]

Oh...and this vile pair also created Terfblocker - silencing 50,000 women. Peaktrans please because fucking perverts like this really do expose the myths of self ID - no repercussions. AC is a lying POS.

 

[co-op]

Oh...and this vile pair also created Terfblocker - silencing 50,000 women. Peaktrans please because fucking perverts like this really do expose the myths of self ID - no repercussions. AC is a lying POS.

I don't think we know whether AC is lying do we?

The point isn't that for me, it's just that AC was (a) pushing self-id and (b) simultaneously using accusations of transphobia and bigotry to stop anyone questioning (a) and that's dangerous - and DC is a perfect illustration of why.