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The Dominic Cummings file

Oddly enough, he's wrong - and didn't quite say that either. So the paraphrase is wrong not the argument that people quite like the NHS and look to support it.
 
Article about Cummings from today's Observer here by Carole Cadwalladr
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I am amazed that the word 'conspiracy' is touted around as if it's tinfoil hat territory when what Cummings and others have done is a matter of public record.
 
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Proper Tidy said:
My theory is that remain might have won it offered some sort of prospect of change, just a hunch tho
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'remain' wasn't one thing, though. Some unions stressed worker rights that come with EU directives. And tbf, with more than 60 per cent labour voters voting remain that may have hit some kind of a chord. Biggest issue there surely is the number of tory voters voting leave, and here I would suggest Cameron's dismal performance can't have helped. I didn't follow him closely, but the one bit I did see was awful - he just had a narrow line about the EU being good for business and refused to engage in anything beyond that at all.

I saw Yanis Varoufakis talking about 'radical remain', and he did get that people wanted change, whatever you think of his position. Labour could have stressed that more, too, but then, more labour voters voted remain than SNP voters. And these were not all some kind of detached 'liberal elite' types - around 70 per cent black people voted remain, for instance, irrc. That wasn't cos they feel themselves European or any such bollocks. That was to a large extent because they feared the increased xenophobia and racism that this vote has triggered, because of who it was that wanted 'leave' to happen. You'd have to say that such fears, which were expressed by many on here too, were justified.

But then there's the age demographic of the vote. So many young people voted remain (75 per cent under 25s is a huge majority), and surely it is young people who are going to be most keen on change, no? People like my mum and dad, in their 80s and voting leave, many of them seem really to have voted, deep down, I think because they thought there had been too much change. And of course more old people vote than young people, which also tips things on this particular issue.

tbh democratic exercises like this aren't so finely tuned as all that, given the people who don't vote, or can't vote, and the variety of the reasons behind people's votes, including flat-out misunderstandings of certain issues. Let's not beat around that one - some people blame things like immigration for aspects of their own lives whose causes are not what they think they are. I'm not screaming 'thicky leavers' here, but it's absurd to pretend this isn't a factor in many people's voting habits, the very factor that was exploited by the likes of Cummings with their targetted ads. ffs how else do you explain so many people voting tory, so many people believing the tories are 'safer with the economy' than labour, despite the mountain of evidence that the exact opposite has been true historically. Really the best we can say is that the country is divided over the issue, but it is way more divided now, post-referendum. There wasn't a massive clamour for this referendum outside the tory party, really. For most people, however they voted, they weren't waking up in the morning thinking 'fuck the EU' or 'yay the EU'.

And any referendum on any issue is a blunt instrument. Those who feel they themselves are doing ok are more likely to vote 'no change' for that reason, while those who feel badly done by will be more likely to vote 'change', pretty much irrespective of the issue actually on the ballot paper, and we all confabulate reasons post-fact to justify our positions that are really no better than fiction - that's just what we do, all of us, whether we know we do it or not. So an EU referendum not in the middle of vicious public sector cuts may have turned out differently, even though it really is a stretch to blame the UK's austerity on the EU.

fwiw my main objection to brexit remains very simply my opposition to the politics, interests and values of the vast majority of those who actively seek it. Nothing good can ever come from empowering cunts like that. It's massively depressing to me the number of people prepared to support racist cunts like Farage or Johnson. That's been the worst aspect of the brexit shitfest.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
'remain' wasn't one thing, though. Some unions stressed worker rights that come with EU directives. And tbf, with more than 60 per cent labour voters voting remain that may have hit some kind of a chord. Biggest issue there surely is the number of tory voters voting leave, and here I would suggest Cameron's dismal performance can't have helped. I didn't follow him closely, but the one bit I did see was awful - he just had a narrow line about the EU being good for business and refused to engage in anything beyond that at all.

I saw Yanis Varoufakis talking about 'radical remain', and he did get that people wanted change, whatever you think of his position. Labour could have stressed that more, too, but then, more labour voters voted remain than SNP voters. And these were not all some kind of detached 'liberal elite' types - around 70 per cent black people voted remain, for instance, irrc. That wasn't cos they feel themselves European or any such bollocks. That was to a large extent because they feared the increased xenophobia and racism that this vote has triggered, because of who it was that wanted 'leave' to happen. You'd have to say that such fears, which were expressed by many on here too, were justified.

But then there's the age demographic of the vote. So many young people voted remain (75 per cent under 25s is a huge majority), and surely it is young people who are going to be most keen on change, no? People like my mum and dad, in their 80s and voting leave, many of them seem really to have voted, deep down, I think because they thought there had been too much change. And of course more old people vote than young people, which also tips things on this particular issue.

tbh democratic exercises like this aren't so finely tuned as all that, given the people who don't vote, or can't vote, and the variety of the reasons behind people's votes, including flat-out misunderstandings of certain issues. Let's not beat around that one - some people blame things like immigration for aspects of their own lives whose causes are not what they think they are. I'm not screaming 'thicky leavers' here, but it's absurd to pretend this isn't a factor in many people's voting habits, the very factor that was exploited by the likes of Cummings with their targetted ads. ffs how else do you explain so many people voting tory, so many people believing the tories are 'safer with the economy' than labour, despite the mountain of evidence that the exact opposite has been true historically. Really the best we can say is that the country is divided over the issue, but it is way more divided now, post-referendum. There wasn't a massive clamour for this referendum outside the tory party, really. For most people, however they voted, they weren't waking up in the morning thinking 'fuck the EU' or 'yay the EU'.

And any referendum on any issue is a blunt instrument. Those who feel they themselves are doing ok are more likely to vote 'no change' for that reason, while those who feel badly done by will be more likely to vote 'change', pretty much irrespective of the issue actually on the ballot paper, and we all confabulate reasons post-fact to justify our positions that are really no better than fiction - that's just what we do, all of us, whether we know we do it or not. So an EU referendum not in the middle of vicious public sector cuts may have turned out differently, even though it really is a stretch to blame the UK's austerity on the EU.

fwiw my main objection to brexit remains very simply my opposition to the politics, interests and values of the vast majority of those who actively seek it. Nothing good can ever come from empowering cunts like that. It's massively depressing to me the number of people prepared to support racist cunts like Farage or Johnson. That's been the worst aspect of the brexit shitfest.
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Yeah I agree neither remain nor leave were one thing in terms of motivations to vote. My comment was in the context of the remain campaign. Which didn't offer any prospect of change, hence why imo it lost
 
Gaia said:
Ah Rachael ‘Fuck Me Jezza!’ ‘Swindon’, Twatter’s one-woman Jezza propaganda machine. I was shocked when I found out she was a real person, I thought she was a bot run by Labour HQ.
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You posting things like this in politics is getting more than a little tiresome, Gaia.

I don't have an opinion on Rachael Swindon particularl, but describing her in this way comes across as more than a little sexist and offensive. She may well be a one woman propaganda machine as you put it, but why phrase it the way that you have? Are you trying to be controversial?
 
Don’t know if this is Cumming’s doing, but I’m getting police recruitment ads on my Facebook from the government, which emphasise that they’re recruiting 20,000 new coppers. Blatant politicking using the police recruitment budget isn’t it? Given my age I can’t see how I would be considered a suitable candidate, and they do have control over who these ads are targeted at. Would be interesting to dig and see who they’ve thrown these ads out to, and what justification they might give for targeting people outside of the candidate age range. Slippery cunts.
 
Dogsauce said:
Don’t know if this is Cumming’s doing, but I’m getting police recruitment ads on my Facebook from the government, which emphasise that they’re recruiting 20,000 new coppers. Blatant politicking using the police recruitment budget isn’t it? Given my age I can’t see how I would be considered a suitable candidate, and they do have control over who these ads are targeted at. Would be interesting to dig and see who they’ve thrown these ads out to, and what justification they might give for targeting people outside of the candidate age range. Slippery cunts.
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How old are you?

Conservative Party targets over-45s with Facebook Brexit ads
The Conservative Party has been targeting older Facebook users with political adverts about Brexit, according to research by BBC News. In contrast, younger Facebook users are being shown ads by the party on issues such as policing and mental health. Tory adverts, mostly seen by users over 45, criticise opposition leaders for wanting "to ignore our Brexit vote".
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Dogsauce said:
Don’t know if this is Cumming’s doing, but I’m getting police recruitment ads on my Facebook from the government, which emphasise that they’re recruiting 20,000 new coppers. Blatant politicking using the police recruitment budget isn’t it? Given my age I can’t see how I would be considered a suitable candidate, and they do have control over who these ads are targeted at. Would be interesting to dig and see who they’ve thrown these ads out to, and what justification they might give for targeting people outside of the candidate age range. Slippery cunts.
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Add blocker, and then any sponsored ads you see report as sexually inappropriate, have seen an ad on my FB for years.
 
Dandred said:
Add blocker, and then any sponsored ads you see report as sexually inappropriate, have seen an ad on my FB for years.
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Don’t think I can run that on an iPad. I tend to only stick my nose in about once a week as some berks send me messages through it which I won’t get elsewhere, so not really that bothered about ads appearing. More concerned that propaganda is being disseminated using the police budget. I am over 45 too, and in a heavily remain area.
 
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