The Dominic Cummings file

[elbows]

One aspect that doesn't seem to attract much attention, what exactly were the spies at MI6 doing? If contagious diseases were a recognised risk, why the hell didn't we have a few tame Chinese doctors giving a heads up? it probably would only cost an Oxbridge place for their kids.

There are a few aspects to this but I'll just deal with one now:

If you look at the period of time that was wasted because we didnt know about the outbreak and its details, it was rather short compared to the period of time that was wasted after the alarm bells had already been rung via both WHO channels and other surveillance/analysis systems.

 

[bimble]

there's a joint health/science committee thing going on, they called him to appear

That sounds extremely dull. Is it civil servants rather than politicians who called him to appear then ?
Do find it a bit reassuring (even if nothing happens as a result) that this happened at all tbh, live streamed total attack on the PM all day long.

 

[elbows]

there's a joint health/science committee thing going on, they called him to appear

And those committees often seem to be far more useful than much of the other Westminster business. Although it does vary by subject, by chair and by the quality of the questions. They tend to become a circus when the media shows intent interest with a short attention span, eg David Kelly and the 'chaff' remark directed his way.

 

[killer b]

That sounds extremely dull. Is it civil servants rather than politicians who called him to appear then ?
Do find it a bit reassuring (even if nothing happens as a result) that this happened at all tbh, live streamed total attack on the PM all day long.

No, its a committee of MPs

 

[DaveCinzano]

He probably blogged about just such a scenario back in 2007.

Don't worry, he's on the case, just needs to give the DeLorean a decent run up first

 

[equationgirl]

Can you stab slime?

You can certainly try.

 

[elbows]

There are a few aspects to this but I'll just deal with one now:

If you look at the period of time that was wasted because we didnt know about the outbreak and its details, it was rather short compared to the period of time that was wasted after the alarm bells had already been rung via both WHO channels and other surveillance/analysis systems.

Bah now I feel the need to tediously expand on this so as not to mislead.

I cant say exactly what date China authorities realised there was a problem, a range is possible. Can say that WHO etc knew of problem by end of 2019, and didnt sit on it, basic info was made public. There were further delays well into January in regards the important details and China trying to obfuscate some aspects. And there were delays to WHO declaring a public health emergency of international concern, and then later WHO didnt exactly declare pandemic in a timely manner. But many of those latter alarms werent necessary to start the UK machinery swinging into gear. eg first NERVTAG meeting on the subject was 13th January 2020 so I'd start the UK time wasted clock then. UK government realised their plan A was fucked by evening of 13th March, so 2 months later!

 

[killer b]

And those committees often seem to be far more useful than much of the other Westminster business. Although it does vary by subject, by chair and by the quality of the questions. They tend to become a circus when the media shows intent interest with a short attention span, eg David Kelly and the 'chaff' remark directed his way.

it feels like this is the first one of any real interest since the 2019 election - is this because the televised / livestreamed committee hearing only really became an event under less substantial majorities and there's less opportunities for interesting things to happen in them now, or just because there's been a year off from them really being able to happen?

 

[elbows]

it feels like this is the first one of any real interest since the 2019 election - is this because the televised / livestreamed committee hearing only really became an event under less substantial majorities and there's less opportunities for interesting things to happen in them now, or just because there's been a year off from them really being able to happen?

I dont know because opinions differs on what counts as interesting. If I had a spare parallel lifetime then I would probably watch them all.

There have been quite a lot of interesting ones relating to the pandemic for quite some time now. They were even more draining to watch when nearly everyone was appearing via videoconferencing, but I did find time in 2020 to watch some of them. I recall one where Whitty got a bit shirty and there was plenty of defensiveness and mild throwing under the bus of others (although nothing like what Cummings had to offer on that front today). And those also suffered from distractions such as the weird feelings I get watching Hunt actually making some sense and asking probing questions.

 

[Ax^]

hmm watching the highlights i'm wonder how much that Paint tester backdrop cost the court

 

[pseudonarcissus]

1. no criticism of Rishi, the next prime minister?
2. the Hillsborough trial collapse makes clear that if there is a public inquiry, anyone in authority can alter evidence to their hearts' content.

 

[Lord Camomile]

Don't worry, he's on the case, just needs to give the DeLorean a decent run up first

Are you suggesting a quick run to Barnard Castle?

#lowhangingfruit

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Are you suggesting a quick run to Barnard Castle?

#lowhangingfruit

you have to test your hindsight somewhere

 

[MrSki]

 

[Epona]

Bah now I feel the need to tediously expand on this so as not to mislead.

I cant say exactly what date China authorities realised there was a problem, a range is possible. Can say that WHO etc knew of problem by end of 2019, and didnt sit on it, basic info was made public. There were further delays well into January in regards the important details and China trying to obfuscate some aspects. And there were delays to WHO declaring a public health emergency of international concern, and then later WHO didnt exactly declare pandemic in a timely manner. But many of those latter alarms werent necessary to start the UK machinery swinging into gear. eg first NERVTAG meeting on the subject was 13th January 2020 so I'd start the UK time wasted clock then. UK government realised their plan A was fucked by evening of 13th March, so 2 months later!

There have been failures on a global scale since right early on, it is easy to lose track of that in terms of more recent failures. The entire thing has not been handled particularly well tbh

 

[Epona]

Why the fuck is Cummings trying to come out of this like some sort of hero though? He's an unelected career politician fuckwit who is trying to re-write history to make himself look a bit better. We all know he is a complete shitbag who made grevious errors of judgement throughout, and him trying to paint himself as some sort of "voice of reason" while the govt charged on and ignored him is just ridiculous. Verging on narcissistic IMO.

 

[elbows]

I dont think its a straightforward attempt to come out of it as a hero, since at times he was willing to include himself on the list of people who were not fit to be in charge of the pandemic response.

A fair chunk of pandemic failure that he described wa entirely compatible with his longstanding attitude towards the existing structures of government, and his agenda about how things should be done. Todays performance was a giddy mix of that and more personal stuff to do with specific people he thinks are shit at their jobs, and/or that he has fallen out with at various stages. Not very subtle, especially when contrasted with what he said about those he is full of praise for, or at least doesnt see fit to include in the blame game.

I will obviously never see him as a hero, but if he actually wants to achieve some near-term good with his revelations, in terms of preventing pandemic death, his criticisms need to be carried forwards by all sorts of other people and commentators and applied to Johnsons decision making in the coming period as the government responds to the Indian variant and whaever size wave the variant and the relaxation of measures creates.

My brain is falling out right now beause I decided to reread the many pages of the UK pandemic thread that covered the period of early March through to 24th March. Very many people on this forum had a very good idea of what was going on all the way through that crucial period, but I wore myself out reading it and wont go through it all again now. But along the way there were no shortage of media articles that demonstrated that the government were briefing heavily on the herd immunity approach, especially just before that plan died. And the lag between when Cummings said the u-turn happened, and us figuring it out and/or the media reporting it was quite short at the time, often only hours or a few days.

 

[Epona]

I dont think its a straightforward attempt to come out of it as a hero, since at times he was willing to include himself on the list of people who were not fit to be in charge of the pandemic response.

A fair chunk of pandemic failure that he described wa entirely compatible with his longstanding attitude towards the existing structures of government, and his agenda about how things should be done. Todays performance was a giddy mix of that and more personal stuff to do with specific people he thinks are shit at their jobs, and/or that he has fallen out with at various stages. Not very subtle, especially when contrasted with what he said about those he is full of praise for, or at least doesnt see fit to include in the blame game.

I will obviously never see him as a hero, but if he actually wants to achieve some near-term good with his revelations, in terms of preventing pandemic death, his criticisms need to be carried forwards by all sorts of other people and commentators and applied to Johnsons decision making in the coming period as the government responds to the Indian variant and whaever size wave the variant and the relaxation of measures creates.

My brain is falling out right now beause I decided to reread the many pages of the UK pandemic thread that covered the period of early March through to 24th March. Very many people on this forum had a very good idea of what was going on all the way through that crucial period, but I wore myself out reading it and wont go through it all again now. But along the way there were no shortage of media articles that demonstrated that the government were briefing heavily on the herd immunity approach, especially just before that plan died. And the lag between when Cummings said the u-turn happened, and us figuring it out and/or the media reporting it was quite short at the time, often only hours or a few days.

I remember seeing a very early briefing with Hancock describing how they were going to do intermittent lockdowns to ensure that people got infected for herd immunity but to manage it in waves so the NHS didn't get overwhelmed. I don't have proof, but I swear I did not imagine this. I have a very good memory for certain things and did not imagine it early on. There were graphs about how many seriously ill people the NHS could cope with at any one time and everything (and the approach was never about preventing people getting ill, just how many needing intensive care/ventilators/oxygen could be coped with at any particular time so it didn't overwhelm the NHS)

 

[Calamity1971]

I remember seeing a very early briefing with Hancock describing how they were going to do intermittent lockdowns to ensure that people got infected for herd immunity but to manage it in waves so the NHS didn't get overwhelmed. I don't have proof, but I swear I did not imagine this. I have a very good memory for certain things and did not imagine that. There were graphs about how many seriously ill people the NHS could cope with at any one time and everything (and the approach was never about stopping people getting ill, just how many needing intensive care/ventilators/oxygen could be coped with at any particular time so it didn't overwhelm the NHS)

I remember Johnson saying they were going to 'turn it on and off like a tap' for herd immunity. Can't find that clip or wording anywhere?

 

[Epona]

I remember Johnson saying they were going to 'turn it on and off like a tap' for herd immunity. Can't find that clip or wording anywhere?

That is what I remember too from those early briefings. I am glad that someone else recalls that sort of wording too.

 

[oryx]

I remember Johnson saying they were going to 'turn it on and off like a tap' for herd immunity. Can't find that clip or wording anywhere?

Yes, I definitely remember that phrase being used - think I heard him on the radio saying it.

 

[Sue]

I always thought the origin was the Ink Spots song Whispering Grass.

I was thinking Don Estelle.

 

[Serge Forward]

I was thinking Don Estelle.

And Windsor Davies...

Oh dear, how sad, never mind

 

[equationgirl]

I remember Boris saying they were going to let it scythe through ypopulation so we gained herd immunity, which had a corresponding estimate of 250,000 dead.

It perhaps would have been helpful if Dom had spoken up loudly at the time they were sharpening the scythes, rather than after 127,000 died due to government incompetence and neglect.

 

[scalyboy]

Why the fuck is Cummings trying to come out of this like some sort of hero though? He's an unelected career politician fuckwit who is trying to re-write history to make himself look a bit better. We all know he is a complete shitbag who made grevious errors of judgement throughout, and him trying to paint himself as some sort of "voice of reason" while the govt charged on and ignored him is just ridiculous. Verging on narcissistic IMO.

Yes, that’s why I fear this won’t damage de Pfeffel - the messenger, DC, is regarded by many as a weird sociopath. So that when he laments the tens of thousands of needless deaths, it doesn’t carry much weight - there’s a feeling of ‘but why would he care, he’s a sociopath’ - so it then becomes simply a matter of point-scoring and dilutes the gravity of the message, even if what he’s saying is in large part true.

Plus, let’s face it, de Pfeffel could be caught on CCTV doing a shit in HM the Queen’s handbag and still lead in the polls

 

[maomao]

de Pfeffel could be caught on CCTV doing a shit in HM the Queen’s handbag and still lead in the polls

He'd get my vote for that.

 

[Knotted]

will make zero difference to polling i expect - Tories are teflon at the moment, no meaningful opposition and support based on identity rather than substance - plus these Tories are brazen about shrugging everything off

I admire the dogged pessimism, but I'm really not so sure. This stuff is so huge it will cut through and we're not out of it yet either. I can't see Boris surviving until the next election.

Not that I think Labour are in any shape to take advantage of it or anything.

 

[dessiato]

I think this is too big. People will be overwhelmed by the information and choose to ignore all, or most, of it. As a result the few of us who don't will be thought of as being shit stirring. Johnson will continue as he always has, with no significant enough stains on his character to stop his support.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

He’s had nearly a year to come up with a better story about the Durham trip and the best he can do is some old fanny about a gang outside his house threatening to kill everyone inside, lolz.

 

[LDC]

I remember Johnson saying they were going to 'turn it on and off like a tap' for herd immunity. Can't find that clip or wording anywhere?

I think you're getting two things slightly mixed up. He talked about managing waves in briefings and did use that 'on and off' phrase, but my recall was that is was about managing the 'peaks' for NHS capacity, rather than to develop herd immunity. The herd immunity stuff was mentioned a bit early on, but not in any of the main briefings or press coverage by Johnson or Hancock iirc.