The Anti-Imperialism of Fools - a General thread

[littlebabyjesus]

But I didn't use Nazism as my example. I used Toryism. Let me put it slightly differently: Let us take a belief that the best way to run the world is to privilege property rights such that individuals and sections of society can become very rich while others remain poor. That's a belief held by many, and I hate it. I hate the content of the belief and its consequences for the world.

And I may, in much the same way, take the contents of a religious belief as it is understood by most of those in positions of authority within the belief system, such as the hostility of most of Christianity and most of Islam towards homosexuality, and hate that content and its consequences for the world.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Homosexuals did not exist when the monotheistic Scriptures were composed.

There were homosexual acts of course, but homosexuality was not an identity until the twentieth century. So it is wrong to interpret Scripture's prohibition of sodomy (not homosexuality) as reflecting prejudice or oppression against a group of individuals.

And now we move into the realms of the absurd. I don't care what the various 'scriptures' say. I care how the various groups who say they follow those scriptures act.

 

[phildwyer]

But I didn't use Nazism as my example. I used Toryism.

I'd say the same about Toryism. I think it's wrong. I think religious belief (pretty much any religious belief) is superior to Toryism.

Just to be clear: I don't think Toryism is as bad as Nazism, or that it should be regarded/treated in the same way.

 

[phildwyer]

And now we move into the realms of the absurd. I don't care what the various 'scriptures' say. I care how the various groups who say they follow those scriptures act.

Then you shouldn't condemn Scripture. Scripture can't be held responsible for the ways in which nutters interpret it.

 

[quiquaquo]

In other words, to borrow your term, "some of you" are as big a bunch of intellectually-challenged dicks as "the left"?
Seems about right to me. If you're stupid enough to make assumptions based only on evidence that fits your preconceived thesis, then you're a dick, whatever belief system (religious and/or political) you follow.

With your history you are hardly someone to have a balanced view on the matter of course.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Then you shouldn't condemn Scripture. Scripture can't be held responsible for the ways in which nutters interpret it.

Condemning books, particularly complex collections of stories such as the Christian bible is silly. Where condemnation can come in is when such books are converted into 'scripture' by certain groups, where they are granted special status as revelatory about the word of some 'god' of some kind.

I do actually condemn the very idea of holy 'scripture' in this sense. 'Condemn' is a strong word, but many of those who adhere to such ideas are rather keen on teaching them to young children. I would be lying if I said I didn't have any problem with that, my political position of secularism notwithstanding.

 

[chilango]

Happy now Idris2002 ?

 

[Sirena]

Homosexuals did not exist when the monotheistic Scriptures were composed.

There were homosexual acts of course, but homosexuality was not an identity until the twentieth century. So it is wrong to interpret Scripture's prohibition of sodomy (not homosexuality) as reflecting prejudice or oppression against a group of individuals.

I don't know. In Sumeria/Babylonia (from about 3000 bc) the priesthood of Inanna/Ishtar had about 5 different classes of transgender/gay/intersex/eunuch priests, each with their own function within the cult. But the Sumerian/Babylonian model was polytheistic

It was, in part, the revulsion at all this decadence that took Abraham and his close-minded crew off into the wilderness. And from then on, Judaism would rail against the Whore of Babylon and her excesses.

 

[ViolentPanda]

With your history you are hardly someone to have a balanced view on the matter of course.

Meaning what? Come on, don't be shy, spit out my "history", and why it would make my view unbalanced!

 

[phildwyer]

I don't know. In Sumeria/Babylonia (from about 3000 bc) the priesthood of Inanna/Ishtar had about 5 different classes of transgender/gay/intersex/eunuch priests, each with their own function within the cult. But the Sumerian/Babylonian model was polytheistic

I think that illustrates my point: sexual identity varies with historical and cultural context. The modern gay/straight binary can't be applied to earlier or non-Western cultures.

It doesn't apply in Islam, for example, where the relevant binary is active/passive. In fact I'd argue that the same applies in those Christian cultures most heavily influenced by Islam, such as Latin America.

It was, in part, the revulsion at all this decadence that took Abraham and his close-minded crew off into the wilderness. And from then on, Judaism would rail against the Whore of Babylon and her excesses.

Aye. But the Biblical prohibitions are against "sodomy," which is a much wider concept that "homosexuality." It means any sexual act that cannot result in reproduction, including the use of contraception.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It doesn't apply in Islam, for example, where the relevant binary is active/passive.

Taking your word for this being true, the very fact that there is a relevant binary, that Islam has anything to say about it at all, is itself a problem.

You're arguing at the fringes here, quibbling with details.

 

[phildwyer]

Happy now Idris2002 ?

He claims to have me on ignore, so this thread will look very short to him. Why are you disturbing his tranquility like this?

 

[phildwyer]

Taking your word for this being true, the very fact that there is a relevant binary, that Islam has anything to say about it at all, is itself a problem.

The Koran doesn't have anything to say about it. By "Islam" I meant "Islamic culture."

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Koran doesn't have anything to say about it. By "Islam" I meant "Islamic culture."

I'm no expert on the Koran at all. But are you saying that this website's quotes are all wrong?

eg

Qur'an (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

 

[phildwyer]

I'm no expert on the Koran at all. But are you saying that this website's quotes are all wrong?

Male-on-male sex is prohibited for the same reason that oral sex is prohibited: it's non-reproductive, thus concupiscent. It's not an anti-gay thing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Male-on-male sex is prohibited for the same reason that oral sex is prohibited: it's non-reproductive, thus concupiscent. It's not an anti-gay thing.

It is, among other things, an anti-gay thing.

"I don't think being gay is wrong, merely having gay sex"

It's the same kind of nonsense Christians come out with.

Fuck that.

Your last few posts have pretty much made my case for me.

 

[Greebo]

Male-on-male sex is prohibited for the same reason that oral sex is prohibited: it's non-reproductive, thus concupiscent. It's not an anti-gay thing.

It's still homophobic in outcome, since it has a disproportionate impact on gay men.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's still homophobic in outcome, since it has a disproportionate impact on gay men.

But it's fine to fancy men. You've just got to remain celibate your whole life, that's all. Why is that so much to ask?

 

[phildwyer]

It is, among other things, an anti-gay thing.

"I don't think being gay is wrong, merely having gay sex"

It's the same kind of nonsense Christians come out with.

Fuck that.

Your last few posts have pretty much made my case for me.

Basically, it's like this.

It's alright for a man to have sex with a man in Islamic culture. Islamic countries are far more tolerant in this regard than Western ones. Any young man who has traveled in the Islamic world can testify to having received numerous unsolicited advances of the kind that simply would not be publicly tolerated in the West. It's like being a girl iyswim.

What is unacceptable is for a grown man to be the bottom. That is considered effeminate. This was also the case in the ancient world: Julius Caesar had a lot of trouble because of a rumor than he had played Ganymede to the King of Pontius or somewhere. It wasn't the fact that this had been gay that was problematic, it was because he had allegedly been the bottom.

 

[Greebo]

But it's fine to fancy men. You've just got to remain celibate your whole life, that's all. Why is that so much to ask?

Apart from anything else, it either proves that the Abrahamic perception of deity is either capable of making mistakes, or is unacceptably unjust.

After all, if you and all the urges and abilities within you are godgiven, how could a benevolent god cause or allow you to want the one thing which you'll never be allowed to have?

 

[phildwyer]

Apart from anything else, it either proves that the Abrahamic perception of deity is either capable of making mistakes, or is unacceptably unjust.

After all, if you and all the urges and abilities within you are godgiven, how could a benevolent god cause or allow you to want the one thing which you'll never be allowed to have?

Exactly. Also you can see the same thing, to some extent, in Latin America, because they learned their sexuality from the Moors.

 

[J Ed]

Seems to be ok to be anti racist and hate Islam now.

No wonder some of us think that even those of you on the Left are all racists when it comes to Muslims and Islam.

Can you answer the questions which I posed to you previously?

 

[likesfish]

I am an atheist and am expected to treat people with religious belief with respect rather than with pity and or amusement that they waste time on dishonest bollocks,fairy storys and mumbo. jumbo.
none of the stuff is real after thousands of years humanity has no proof any god exsists mostly spent hundreds of years disproving the exsistence of the super natural.

Spent the last 40 years mostly cursing god daily no thunderbolts zero divine wrath, western european christanity is mostly tame. Islam seems to think killing cartoonists, salmon rushdie ( midnight childrens was shite so havnt read satanic verses yet) ex muslims,muslim girls who shag the wrong bloke Aid workers acceptable behaviour.
Anyone pointing out that some people who call themselves muslim behave in a barberous manner is obviously a racist.

i will treat you how I attempt to treat everybody with common courtesy if it costs me little to " respect" your frankly moonbat beliefs then I will. if its going to be a hassle for me then ai wont because I couldnt give a fuck what mo wrote in his extra special holy book.

Frankly evangelion has better art and action figures and allows beer drinking it also makes more sense and nobodys committed murder on behalf of askua she who must be obeyed

 

[quiquaquo]

Can you answer the questions which I posed to you previously?

I don't see no messages and anyway why the fuck should I.

Who are you?

 

[J Ed]

I don't see no messages and anyway why the fuck should I.

Who are you?

Thanks.

 

[frogwoman]

There is nothing wrong with criticising Jewish religious beliefs. Belief that the bible is not divinely handed down from God to Moses and criticising such views was what led to reform judaism.

There is support in the bible for the view that god gave the land to the jews that serve as a justification for modern day zionism. It is stated in the torah that raped women should marry their rapist. Why the fuck shouldnt those passages be criticised.

 

[frogwoman]

Also judaism does have severe rules about apostacy and the death of apostates. Due to criticism of them and alternative interpretations and pressures inside and outside the community they are no longer followed.

 

[redsquirrel]

With your history you are hardly someone to have a balanced view on the matter of course.

What history would that be? Come on don't be coy.

 

[rekil]

What history would that be? Come on don't be coy.

Gimme a 'J'

 

[redsquirrel]

Yeah, that's the obvious conclusion. If quiquaquo meant something else I think he/she should clear it up PDQ otherwise their card's marked as a anti-semitic cunt.