The Alt-Left

[Humberto]

anyone else explain?

I'll have a stab...

Neo-Cons were/are for using America's superpower status and massive military profile to order the world in 'America's' interest, by military means preferably. A clique with considerable influence.

Mainstream right wing governmental policy for ages has been neoliberal and recently the (faulty) intellectual underpinnings have been whats called 'Libertarianism'. As that now looks like bollocks even to them the right has shifted or is shifting towards what Greg Johnson talks about in the important link posted by butchersapron up thread.

Thats not enough effort, but basically my understanding after reading it once.

 

[camouflage]

I saw this: If they don’t want more austerity, racists & non-racists should vote Le Pen, and thought of here. The article is interesting and so are a few of the comments. bit of a risky strategy mind, but to quote iRobot, the "logic is impeccable" (that being in a sort of artificial intelligence gone homicidally nuts for the greater good sort of way).

I recall saying something similar when Ron Paul ran for president in 2012, and can't deny a certain satisfaction re Brexit and Trump. Politics of frustration init.

 

[Humberto]

Why would a non racist vote for Le Pen? Title is stupid so I didn't read it.

 

[camouflage]

Why would a non racist vote for Le Pen? Title is stupid so I didn't read it.

The title and the authors quirky edgy and shocking approach (I presume is the idea) aside, it presents new information to me on the nature of French society right now. There's a bit in there I liked because I made a similar point myself- if the French wanted nothing to do with islam perhaps they shouldn't have tried to annex Algeria (for 132 years it turns out). Good point also about how the concept of what it is to be French still attempts to exclude ten percent of the French population. Silly in parts, insightful in others, I doubt the author is serious though... unless he is, who knows.

 

[Humberto]

Read your article btw...

A stream of argument from the alt-right it seemed to me

 

[rekil]

Read your article btw...

A stream of argument from the alt-right it seemed to me

It's another one of his conspiraloon/3rd positionist/Dugin sites. Loads more of them in its links section.

 

[Idris2002]

Why would a non racist vote for Le Pen? Title is stupid so I didn't read it.

If you say "why non racists should vote for Le Pen", then this is the bit where your friends slap you hard in the face, and you then say "thanks, I needed that".

 

[camouflage]

If you say "why non racists should vote for Le Pen", then this is the bit where your friends slap you hard in the face, and you then say "thanks, I needed that".

I'll take the slap on the basis of "why non racists should vote for Le Pen" followed by the error-question "wtf... explain your working" and then actually reading said explanation of working, is probably going to be a waste of time in a "don't talk to nutters" sort of way. My flaw init, I'm open-minded and enjoy grappling with ideas I don't agree with. Slap me about for it if you must, but I'd rather not be insulted by having it implied (as coplicker did above) that I'm a 3rd positionist/Dugin Alt-Righter though, I think that's entirely unnecessary. Blinkered-thinking isn't my bag I'm afraid.

Anyway I still feel the article shed some light on the racism in French society, voting for LePen with the idea that the French Communist Party can then rise from the ashes with the full support of the working class is a tad too risky to take seriously and I don't think the author means it... but who knows. It might happen anyway after Fillon but as a strategy to do on purpose... fuck that. The article might better have been posted in the Alt-Right discussion really, being more pertinent to how the far right in France is.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've been increasingly finding the left-right paradigm rather one-dimensional

Except, of course, that the paradigm you mention is two-dimensional by virtue of it being "left-right"

 

[ViolentPanda]

We demand two dimensions!

Flatlander!!!

 

[DotCommunist]

heh, just came across this on my readings, might as well go here: 'dirtbag left' I don't even...
What Will Become of the Dirtbag Left?

 

[Casually Red]

I'll take the slap on the basis of "why non racists should vote for Le Pen" followed by the error-question "wtf... explain your working" and then actually reading said explanation of working, is probably going to be a waste of time in a "don't talk to nutters" sort of way. My flaw init, I'm open-minded and enjoy grappling with ideas I don't agree with. Slap me about for it if you must, but I'd rather not be insulted by having it implied (as coplicker did above) that I'm a 3rd positionist/Dugin Alt-Righter though, I think that's entirely unnecessary. Blinkered-thinking isn't my bag I'm afraid.

Anyway I still feel the article shed some light on the racism in French society, voting for LePen with the idea that the French Communist Party can then rise from the ashes with the full support of the working class is a tad too risky to take seriously and I don't think the author means it... but who knows. It might happen anyway after Fillon but as a strategy to do on purpose... fuck that. The article might better have been posted in the Alt-Right discussion really, being more pertinent to how the far right in France is.

He points out pretty well that there's no real difference between le pens racism and Fillons . The only difference being the choice between the 2 is a vote for racism that supports austerity, the euro, neo liberalism , EU diktats , NATO etc and a continuance of the status quo that's fucking everything up. Or a choice for racism that also gives the French working class an opportunity to dismantle, or at least challenge the structures that have brought them to this wholly fucked up point . And the opportunity to use that break as a starting point for something better. Which has a logic to it, as well as a massive ..huge, evel knieval style ..leap of optimism .

I also don't think he's talking about the communist party as such rising from the ashes but a new leftist movement exemplified by Melenchon that derives the support of the communist grass roots.

One major flaw though is that he takes the FN as a whole as this more mainstream , less nasty focussed project that the current le pen has fashioned . That's not the sum of its whole parts. There's a lot more nasty stuff there though lurking just behind the curtains . Her daughters probably worse than her da . The thought of people like that having power is pretty chilling and he doesn't go into that and its dangers in any depth. The current le pen isn't a fascist but the same cant be said for the rest of her family and the elements that support them . So what he's talking about is a leap into the dark that has the potential to go somewhere very dark indeed . But he doesn't dwell on that and that's a big flaw.

He raises some good points but there's big gaps too . ultimately though it just points to a fucked up set of choices . Both are very very shit . A le pen defeat certainly isn't a victory against racism when her opponents no different to any real degree . Just slightly less direct but ultimately exactly the same. Don't think anyone can make a silk purse out of that sows ear even though a political defeat to the austerity agenda , the 1 %and the EU would be welcome .

It's like choosing whether to saw your left or right bollock off .

 

[rekil]

Pro-Assad person who wanted nazis to win ww2 and hangs around with nazis and spends life posting sexist, racist, conspiraloon, homophobic, anti-imperialist, anti-semitic bollocks on internet claims he's defo not, repeat, not, supporting the very pro-Assad Le Pen.

 

[butchersapron]

Pro-Assad person who wanted nazis to win ww2 and hangs around with nazis and spends life posting sexist, racist, conspiraloon, homophobic, anti-imperialist, anti-semitic bollocks on internet claims he's defo not, repeat, not, supporting the very pro-Assad Le Pen.

...and def not suggesting a vote for Le Pen and the National front is at least a viable option. On a thread about the left.

Which one of the two above are talking about anyway?

 

[Casually Red]

Why would a non racist vote for Le Pen? Title is stupid so I didn't read it.

Why would a non racist vote for Fillon ?



Whys his racism more to your tastes than le pens ?

 

[J Ed]

Why would a non racist vote for Fillon ?



Whys his racism more to your tastes than le pens ?

I believe that there are also other candidates available

 

[Casually Red]

I believe that there are also other candidates available

Certainly melenchon would be a very good choice .

 

[rekil]

...and def not suggesting a vote for Le Pen and the National front is at least a viable option. On a thread about the left.

Which one of the two above are talking about anyway?

Just noticed camo's protestations about being characterised as someone who does little else on here but post 'interesting' links to various strands of far right sites. And yet perhaps it's my proximity to the optimism capital of Ireland but I still see a way out. Not for the other one though.

 

[Casually Red]

The title and the authors quirky edgy and shocking approach (I presume is the idea) aside, it presents new information to me on the nature of French society right now. There's a bit in there I liked because I made a similar point myself- if the French wanted nothing to do with islam perhaps they shouldn't have tried to annex Algeria (for 132 years it turns out). Good point also about how the concept of what it is to be French still attempts to exclude ten percent of the French population. Silly in parts, insightful in others, I doubt the author is serious though... unless he is, who knows.

Yeah but there's more than Algeria in this equation . Fillon spoke of having nothing to apologise for in Africa, Asia etc . He was Sarkozys prime minister . The other candidate Sarkozy ran for the presidency years back on a promise to put an end to the shady back room deals and corruption that characterised French and African relationships, promised a new beginning etc that won him a lot of support in Africa...and African votes in France . Many Africans wanted him to win back then . That's why Gadaffi stepped in and funded him .
Then no sooner was he in he turned up in Dakar and lectured the natives on how they'd made no contribution to history, ignorant lazy peasants etc . Unbelievable stuff.

Africans still seething over Sarkozy speech

And of course destroyed Libya, murdered gadaffi, his AU ambitions, African Dinar etc etc and went back to business as usual .

Full text of his fine speech there, surprised he got out alive.

Pg 3 - Page 3

Fillons a straight talker though who says there's not even anything to apologise for. Just a misunderstood, long running cultural exchange programme .

 

[rekil]

Who said it. Le Pen or CasuallyRedBrown.

I quite hope Iran and other countries such as Syria develop a nuclear deterrent to zionist and US aggression . The world will be a much fairer place then .

Putting children in the care of gay men , inflicting gay parenthood upon them for the rest of their lives is not just idiotic its extremely unfair on kids .
It's an ideologically based decision , to justify a very modern liberal ideology. The child doesn't have a choice in any of this. Sexuality and sexual urges are central to human behaviour and the human psyche . This liberal rubbish will directly affect the psychological balance of the little guinea pig kids caught up in this ideological gay campaign . A child who finds homosexual behaviour plain "icky" like the vast majority of normal people will be trapped in a homosexual hell , 7 days a week , 24 hours a day until its old enough to leave or just run away.

If she [Germaine Greer] truly believes men and women are fully equal then she deserves punched square in the face by Mick Dundee

Actually I haven't made my mind up yet as to whether Id be a Chavez or an Assad , my 2 favourite world leaders of all time along with Fidel and the last hope for the planet in my opinion .

 

[Humberto]

Going by that interview posted by Butchersapron the Alt-Right shtick would seem to be: talk about things that sound somewhat reasonable interspersed only occasionally with full on racism i.e. White Nationalism that completely gives the game away and makes them look like the bigoted loons that they are.

As for the rather provocative post from Casually Red you are wasting your time. Take some people off ignore if you want an argument.

 

[Sasaferrato]

There is some good stuff on the thread about them. The Internet cultural melure , confluence of MRA shit, contradictory elements anarcho-capitalistand protectionist economics. Contrary sociopathic trolls and actual fascists.

You do realise that the average man on the street, who is not heavily into politics, wouldn't have a fucking clue what you are talking about?

That in a nutshell is why the left has failed in Britain, too much bloody jargon, and incessant micro-examination of 57 shades of anarchism/socialism/communism ism ism ism. People, other than the obsessed, do not give a fuck about which brand of left you are. They want jobs, a working health service and adequate housing. The incessant bickering and schism that occurs in 'left' politics, turns people off in vast numbers.

I could add that people want small government, and taxes as low as they can be.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Why would a non racist vote for Le Pen? Title is stupid so I didn't read it.

Do you seriously think that everyone who votes for Le Pen is a racist? You don't consider that many are simply voting for change, because what France has at the moment is not working for them?

The left seems to have some skewed sense of entitlement. Anyone who doesn't support them is racist, fascist or stupid. It doesn't seem to occur, that what the left is currently offering is not wanted. In that scenario, there are two choices, either change policy, or become increasingly less relevant year on year.

Most people are not ideologically driven. They want a society that works for them, no matter who is in government.

At the moment, Labour should be well ahead in the polls, indeed, they shouldn't have lost the last election. The 'leftish' tendencies of Milliband, who wasn't actually that 'left', scared people off, Corbyn terrifies them.

Unless the Labour party gets it's act together soon, they will lose the next election.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The 'leftish' tendencies of Milliband,.

Such as?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Milliband Tendency!

 

[Sasaferrato]

Such as?

Nationalisation of banks, abolition of Grammar Schools, mansion tax etc, also, a feeling that he stabbed his brother in the back.

 

[Sasaferrato]

He points out pretty well that there's no real difference between le pens racism and Fillons . The only difference being the choice between the 2 is a vote for racism that supports austerity, the euro, neo liberalism , EU diktats , NATO etc and a continuance of the status quo that's fucking everything up. Or a choice for racism that also gives the French working class an opportunity to dismantle, or at least challenge the structures that have brought them to this wholly fucked up point . And the opportunity to use that break as a starting point for something better. Which has a logic to it, as well as a massive ..huge, evel knieval style ..leap of optimism .

I also don't think he's talking about the communist party as such rising from the ashes but a new leftist movement exemplified by Melenchon that derives the support of the communist grass roots.

One major flaw though is that he takes the FN as a whole as this more mainstream , less nasty focussed project that the current le pen has fashioned . That's not the sum of its whole parts. There's a lot more nasty stuff there though lurking just behind the curtains . Her daughters probably worse than her da . The thought of people like that having power is pretty chilling and he doesn't go into that and its dangers in any depth. The current le pen isn't a fascist but the same cant be said for the rest of her family and the elements that support them . So what he's talking about is a leap into the dark that has the potential to go somewhere very dark indeed . But he doesn't dwell on that and that's a big flaw.

He raises some good points but there's big gaps too . ultimately though it just points to a fucked up set of choices . Both are very very shit . A le pen defeat certainly isn't a victory against racism when her opponents no different to any real degree . Just slightly less direct but ultimately exactly the same. Don't think anyone can make a silk purse out of that sows ear even though a political defeat to the austerity agenda , the 1 %and the EU would be welcome .

It's like choosing whether to saw your left or right bollock off .

Like the anti-Semitism in Momentum?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Nationalisation of banks, abolition of Grammar Schools

Where either of those in the 2015 manifesto?

mansion tax etc

No one gave a shit either way on the mansion tax (apart from people with mansions, obviously)

also, a feeling that he stabbed his brother in the back

Probably made a difference, but nothing to do with policy.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Where either of those in the 2015 manifesto?



No one gave a shit either way on the mansion tax (apart from people with mansions, obviously)



Probably made a difference, but nothing to do with policy.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, as you haven't stated it. Perhaps you would be so kind...

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make, as you haven't stated it. Perhaps you would be so kind...

You gave these as examples of the sort of left wing policy people rejected Labour for under Milliband. I was pointing out that they weren't even part of Labour's platform.