The 7/7 Report

[Prole]

Oh and why were you harassing the Anti Terrorist Branch of Scotland Yard?

His reply to you is quite telling:

In a nutshell - leave me alone you fucking deluded fool, so I might finish my investigation, and if I don't you'd be the first one to moan.

I put it to you that your interest in the events of 7/7 is purely that of morbid curiosity, and perhaps because you missed out on the 9/11 conspiranoid fest and you're just hoping for some publicity.

I do not believe you are remotely interested in "the truth" of those events.

I do believe you are after some attention, for reasons known only to you.

One of the reasons I contacted the MPS was because their 'one week anniversary appeal' press release:
http://cms.met.police.uk/news/major..._attacks/one_week_anniversary_bombings_appeal
was still stating:

'Piccadilly Line train travelling from Kings Cross to Russell Square, approx 600 metres into the tunnel. The device was in the first carriage, in the standing area near the first set of double doors.'

We know from BK's account that she contacted the MP to say that she was standing there so although the BBC changed their information the MPS hadn't. As these are the sources for any investigation (historical and otherwise) I thought they should at least be correct.

 

[Badger Kitten]

The principle of innocent until proven guilty methinks.

Well, call me picky, but I'd say their deaths by explosions whilst wearing rucksacks full of explosives having driven to Luton in a car full of explosives and left a house full of explosives with their finger prints and DNA all over said home made explosives and then caught a Thameslink train wearing explosives and having got on 3 trains and a bus and then subsequently exploded are fairly damning.

As is the video of Khan saying this is a war and he is a soldier and words have no effect so he is going to use a langusge we understand - and then blowing himself up in front of an eye witness in Khan's case - and being involved with the Crevice terrorists and taped discussing plots to explode bombs in London with them is fairly compelling proof myself.

Plus, you know, having been on the bloody train I can vouch for the fact that a bomb went off in it, and killed 26 people right behind me.

But do let's hear your exciting hypotheses. Innocent until proven guilty? How much more guilty do you want them to be? They're fucking dead. From bombs. Which they made. And detonated.


Or was it a coincidence that somone else bombed the trains which they were on with their rucksacks full of home made explosives?

Get. A. Grip.

 

[Prole]

Bk:then caught a Thameslink train wearing explosives

Which one?

Wearing explosives?

 

[Azrael23]

Well, call me picky, but I'd say their deaths by explosions whilst wearing rucksacks full of explosives having driven to Luton in a car full of explosives and left a house full of explosives with their finger prints and DNA all over said home made explosives and then caught a Thameslink train wearing explosives and having got on 3 trains and a bus and then subsequently exploded are fairly damning.

As is the video of Khan saying this is a war and he is a soldier and words have no effect so he is going to use a langusge we understand - and then blowing himself up in front of an eye witness in Khan's case - and being involved with the Crevice terrorists and taped discussing plots to explode bombs in London with them is fairly compelling proof myself.

Plus, you know, having been on the bloody train I can vouch for the fact that a bomb went off in it, and killed 26 people right behind me.

But do let's hear your exciting hypotheses. Innocent until proven guilty? How much more guilty do you want them to be? They're fucking dead. From bombs. Which they made. And detonated.


Or was it a coincidence that somone else bombed the trains which they were on with their rucksacks full of home made explosives?

Get. A. Grip.

But like I said, does it matter?

Whose been busy setting up all these terror networks anyway, our bloody security services. Its like the fascist party resurgence in Germany a little time ago, came out the boss was german intelligence and they got all their money from the British.
Like i`ve said a million times, the "mastermind" was Aswat we were told, but he`s all forgotten about now as is the fact he is a british intelligence asset.

Get a grip.

 

[laptop]

Innocent until proven guilty? How much more guilty do you want them to be?

Call me old-fashined, a 70s politico if you like, but I reckon that the struggles of the oppressed should always be led by the oppressed. And when people start campaigning on their behalf, shit happens.

They're fucking dead. From bombs. Which they made. And detonated.

Ah. Must be frustrating for prole that they're not doing more in their own cause, eh?

 

[Badger Kitten]

But like I said, does it matter?

Whose been busy setting up all these terror networks anyway, our bloody security services. Its like the fascist party resurgence in Germany a little time ago, came out the boss was german intelligence and they got all their money from the British.
Like i`ve said a million times, the "mastermind" was Aswat we were told, but he`s all forgotten about now as is the fact he is a british intelligence asset.

Get a grip.

Yes, Azrael. It does matter. It matters to me and to the families of the 52 dead and the 700 injured and the survivors that the truth is told, and that conspiralies that are lapped up by those who seek to make these men martyrs or to deny their guilt are challenged.

You deny mass murder and you wilfully and obscenely befoul the graves of dead with your lies, and so does Prole.


And I would love to see you banned for this, you and Prole, because you are sick and deceitful and vile, or else you are just deluded. But there is no excuse for what you say.

And if you said to me in person what you have said on these boards ' what does it matter' - I would slap your face for it. And I don't believe in violence. And I would feel terrible afterwards. But I would still slap your face, as hard as I possibly could, and spit in it, because the bombers are dead, but you seek to deny their mass murder, and that is not forgiveable.


Well, fuck you both, I am going for a cigarette.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Yes, Azrael. It does matter. It matters to me and to the families of the52 dead and the 700 injured and the survivors that the truth is told, and that conspiralies that are lapped up by those who seek to make these men martyrs or to deny their guilt are challenged.

You deny mass murder and you wilfully and obscenely defoul the graves of dead with your lies, and so does Prole.


And I would love to see you banned for this, you and Prole, because you are sick and deceitful and vile, or else you are just deluded. But there is no excuse for what you say.

And if you said to me in person what you have said on these boards ' what does it matter' - I would slap your face for it. And I don't believe in violence. And I would feel terrible afterwards. But I would still slap your face, as hard as I possibly could, and spit in it, because the bombers are dead, but you seek to deny their mass murder, and that is not forgiveable.


Well, fuck you both, I am going for a cigarette.

I thought 56 people died?

 

[Badger Kitten]

52 died and 4 bombers.

 

[laptop]

I thought 56 people died?

56 - 52 = 4.

I don't think Badger Kitten is particularly mourning the 4.

 

[Prole]

But like I said, does it matter?

Whose been busy setting up all these terror networks anyway, our bloody security services. Its like the fascist party resurgence in Germany a little time ago, came out the boss was german intelligence and they got all their "money from the British.
Like i`ve said a million times, the "mastermind" was Aswat we were told, but he`s all forgotten about now as is the fact he is a british intelligence asset.

Get a grip.

p.9 of the official report (this is likely to bea reference to Aswat)

"9 July The press reported later that a known extremist figure and possible mastermind left the UK shortly before the bombings. There is no evidence that the individual was involved."

Reading through the official report there are no links to anyone else, just 4 young people working alone unbeknownst to anyone else.

Whatever happened to Martin Abdullah McDaid, the ex-SBS anti-terrorist operative who ran the Iqra bookshop? Or Eliaz Fiaz, who for a week we were told was responsible for the Piccadilly Line explosion and has since disappeared?

 

[Badger Kitten]

The families of the bombers, are victims too, but it is not known whether they have drawn comfort from or object to the notion that the bombers were innocent; the families of the 52 dead passengers on the other hand...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

56 - 52 = 4.

I don't think Badger Kitten is particularly mourning the 4.

Fair enough but I'm sure their families are.

 

[laptop]

See BK post above...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

See BK post above...

Yeah, hastily posting and trying to sort out my wifi net meant I didn't read thoroughly.

 

[Azrael23]

Of course it matters what happened that day, what I meant does it matter in the sense of this debate? It couldn`t have been amateur terorists as the explosives were mil grade. So its either a network or its special ops/SS. Both of which leads you to the same progenitors. The masters of state.

The families of the victims want a public inquiry why won`t Blair have one? We have them into bloody everything these days so why not this?

The media named Aswat as the mastermind. Just because the line changed once it emerged he was British Intelligence thats not to say he wasn`t involved. They`ve already bailed him out a few times in the US, Zambia etc.

I`m sick of all the conjecture though, can`t we address the glaring issue that our govt is using the threat of terror to launch wars and the suspension of our rights. Whilst we sit around doing jack shit about it. If you try and talk about how they`re actually doing it, your labelled a conspiracy theorist, but come on we all know whats going on, we`re not bloody stupid. Although some people on here do some really good impressions of stupidity. lol

BTW how am I denying mass murder? Your talking in overdramatised riddles mate!

 

[Badger Kitten]

The explosives were HOME MADE. They were acetone and peroxide -based. I always said they smelled of peroxide, and the report confirmed it, and I wish you would stop posting such shit when you clearly know very little about what happened, and that is being charitable.

All this deluded bullshit is fucking up calls for a public enquiry, after months of campaigning I cannot bear it to be classed with the nutcases like you when I have spent months trying to diassociate calls for a public enquiry form the damaging fruitloopery you and your ilk spout.

Just how is it so hard to grasp that young men, enraged by a sense of injustice and a politically toxic theology , blew up trains and a bus, on purpose, in a suicidal act of would-be martyrdom? You manage to believe in astral travelling and fucking astrology, and yet you can't accept unpleasant basic facts when they bite you on the bum?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Of course it matters what happened that day, what I meant does it matter in the sense of this debate? It couldn`t have been amateur terorists as the explosives were mil grade. So its either a network or its special ops/SS. Both of which leads you to the same progenitors. The masters of state...( sniiiiiiiiiiip!)

BTW how am I denying mass murder? Your talking in overdramatised riddles mate!

You - and Prole - deny that mass murderers - Khan, Husseain, Tanweer and Lindsey - murdered 52 people and injured 700.


Next up,. the gas chambers were a hoax and Pol Pot was a top bloke? FFS.

 

[editor]

Of course it matters what happened that day, what I meant does it matter in the sense of this debate?

Ah you're back. Great.

Perhaps you'll FINALLY answer my questions concerning your claims made about the exercise on 7/7:

What's this 'radio chatter' you're babbling on about? (you do know that the the exercise was on paper, yes?)
What were the names of these 'key departments' involved in this 'drill and who did they work for?'
What and who were these 'key operatives' who were moving about?

Oh, and how did this exercise taking place on paper in a corporate office provide a 'smokescreen' for invisible operatives to invisibly install these invisible bombs on tube trains?

 

[Blagsta]

Well accepted = True?

Van der Lubbe was a homeless drunk with a questionable grip on reality, not the kind of person who would excel at defending himself in a trial.
Anyway as far as I`m aware its "fairly well accepted" that the SS firebombed the reichstag.

You're wrong. From "The Anatomy of Fascism" by Robert O. Paxton - "Today most historians believe that Van der Lubbe really lit the fire and that Hitler and his associates , taken by surprise, really believed a communist coup had begun. Enough Germans shared their panic to give the Nazi's almost unlimited leeway"

 

[ZAMB]

And do you remember who from?

The media. Who are not, by and large, trained in any investigative interview techniques. Who are not, by and large, trained to do anything other than to record whatever anyone says to them. And who, by and large, are simply interested in getting whatever they have on to the screen (entirely regardless of it's reliability, it's impact on victims, the public or any subsequent investigation and prosecution) as soon as possible and certainly before anyone else does ...

Many of the eye witness accounts to that shooting were supposedly in the tube car - the same as witnesses in this case. The media weren't the only ones giving out misinformation, however - the police also gave out a lot of false info. on TV before they finally admitted that they had assassinated an innocent young man. The only points I was trying to make here was already made by someone else - that eye-witness testimony of a traumatic event can not only be grossly unreliable, but it can also be coloured by things said after the event or by what they think 'might' have happened, and also because the police say something, it doesn't automatically make it true, unfortunately.

 

[detective-boy]

the police also gave out a lot of false info. on TV before they finally admitted that they had assassinated an innocent young man.

And your source for that statement (i.e. reference to recordings or transcripts of official police statements, or to police service media releases)?

I take no issue with your point that witnesses can sometimes be unreliable (although equally they can be very reliable).

I take no issue with your statement that "Just because the police say it does not make it true" (although having spent some years drafting and making police statements in situations involving potential court proceedings I think you are wrong if you believe they routinely deliberately give out false information - they don't).

I do take issue with you making sweeping statements based on a false premise which is regularly quoted as fact. When it isn't.

 

[Jazzz]

The explosives were HOME MADE. They were acetone and peroxide -based. I always said they smelled of peroxide

Can I ask how you know this BK? I'm not familiar with any peroxide except hydrogen peroxide. But TATP isn't the same thing at all, it has a 'distinctive acrid smell' which is certainly not how I would describe the smell of hydrogen peroxide. And TATP doesn't give off hydrogen peroxide when it explodes, it gives off acetone (sweet smelling, IIRC) and ozone.

 

[editor]

Can I ask how you know this BK? I'm not familiar with any peroxide except hydrogen peroxide. But TATP isn't the same thing at all, it has a 'distinctive acrid smell' which is certainly not how I would describe the smell of hydrogen peroxide.

So you're saying what? The bombs didn't exist?

So how come two of the bombers ended up bleaching their hair so much when they were making the bombs that they had to make excuses to their relatives, Jazzz?

When the relatives of two of the plotters wondered why their the hair of their sons had become bleached over a period of weeks, they blamed chlorine from a swimming pool. Police found shower caps at the bombmaking scene, but these were clearly not effective enough.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2177131,00.html

And why did both Tanweer and Lindsay buy facemasks on the internet?
How do you explain the poisonous vapours that had killed the tops of plants just outside their bomb making plant?

 

[Jazzz]

I was simpy asking BK a question about her identification of the bombs from her smell of them.

Of course bombs existed editor.

Either things are as the state says or we are dealing with an elaborate deception. The evidence you mention is circumstantial, and the bomb factory wasn't on a property belonging to any of the four.

You must admit the supposed synthesis of plenty of TATP by these four ordinary guys was an extraordinary achievement. Reading the instructions on how to do it

Acetone Peroxides are very unstable chemicals. If handled at all, they should be treated with great care and only synthesized in minute quantities.
...

TATP is widely considered to be too unstable to synthesize safely in standard laboratory facilities, though small quantities (under 1 gram) are occasionally synthesized for research purposes, and for testing and calibration of detection equipment.

wikibooks

That translates as - even the experts with all the best equipment can blow themselves up with this stuff - don't try this at home kids. In fact if you want to synthesise MDMA you might just blow yourself up because you are at risk of creating TATP by accident! I am absolutely staggered that these guys (all non-chemists) are held to have produced loads of the stuff (along with detonators too), and then waltzed around with it in their backpacks!

I am sorry that discussions here are so heated. We are all the same side as far as I can see - we all want a public enquiry. However I must say that the abuse - on these boards - is not coming from the CT side.

And whatever my differences with BK I applaud her recent statements in the press.

 

[scalyboy]

Right - so which conspiranoid here is saying that picture was faked?

Because I can see their reflection in what appears to be the glass wall behind them... I'm satisfied with that... what is the problem with this picture?

That's correct - there is indeed a glass or perspex surface behind the railings at Luton station. If this image had been crudely Photoshop-ed, on the assumption - as Prole argued - that no-one would examine it that closely, then why would they go to such trouble to fake the mens' reflections in the glass surface? I would have thought that would be compraratively difficult to do.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> Either things are as the state says or we are dealing with an elaborate deception.<snip>

Why only those two options?

There are plenty of others.

For example it might be that things are not exactly as the state says, because they are trying to hide various routine acts of poor judgement, incompetence and unethical behaviour, but despite that, the guys the state says did it, did it, for the reasons one of them went on video to say that he did it.

 

[scalyboy]

The narrative confirms prior ticket purchase:

0715 "[The four] enter Luton Station and go through the ticket barriers together. It is not known where they bought their tickets ... but they must have had some to get on to the platform"

The next entry, six minutes later, is:

0721: "The four are caught on CCTV together heading to the platform for the King's Cross Thameslink train ... apparently relaxed..."

The phraseology used strikes me as odd. Does it imply the train was already there, or was pulling in? And then the next entry:

0740 "The London King's Cross train leaves Luton Station"

The narrative could be taken as meaning they got a train at just after 0721 which then hung around for about 20 minutes before leaving or that they got to the platform at just after 0721 and then waited before catching a train which left at 0740.

Comparing the narrative data with the (apparent) timetable data:

07.20 On time 08.15
07.24 07.25 08.23
07.30 07.42 08.39

If all the data is correct:

(a) they had time to get on the 0720, 0724 or 0730
(b) if the trains all used the same platform, only the 0730 would be consistent with the stated departure time in the narrative.

I do not believe all the data is correct. I would want to see verification of the apparent timetable data as a start point. I would also like to see more detail of train movements in the 25 minutes the narrative has them in the station and / or clarification of the meaning of the phraseology used.

Yes I agree - some of this data is incorrect. For example, the report states that the 4 entered Luton station at 7.15, yet the CCTV image showing this is date-stamped 7.21. Either it was 6 minutes fast, or the writers of the report were careless.
However, this doesn't 'prove' that the bombers could not have reached London in time to set off the bombs!

 

[Prole]

Yes I agree - some of this data is incorrect. For example, the report states that the 4 entered Luton station at 7.15, yet the CCTV image showing this is date-stamped 7.21. Either it was 6 minutes fast, or the writers of the report were careless.
However, this doesn't 'prove' that the bombers could not have reached London in time to set off the bombs!

They could always release the CCTV images from Luton and KX and that way we wouldn't need to speculate would we? After all they keep showing the sequences from Luton and KX from the jaunt on the 28/6 to illustrate the news coverage of the 7th July report. Why do you think they don't release these images? Would shut all us supposed CT's up methinks.

 

[laptop]

Would shut all us supposed CT's up.

I predict that you would all shift to picking other nits.

Just as we demolished your mutterings about the 7 July Luton pic and your only response was to shift to demanding that someone find you a copy of a 28/6 Luton pic.

You see, you have form in the past 12 hours.

 

[Prole]

I predict that you would all shift to picking other nits.

Just as we demolished your mutterings about the 7 July Luton pic and your only response was to shift to demanding that someone find you a copy of a 28/6 Luton pic.

You see, you have form in the past 12 hours.

Doesn't answer my question though does it Why don't they release the images from July 7th?