Taunt the rich

[junglevip]

being black means you must be left wing

I think you missed the point a bit here. Mittens Romney lost

EDIT:

And your being silly

 

[DotCommunist]

Obamas second term is a victory for the right. The fact that you think his skin colour outweighs his politics and the wider politics of anybody playing the electoral game in america on the american working class shows how well they've shifted the debate away from class.

 

[ViolentPanda]

UKIP will disintegrate BNP style. They are a bunch of publicity seeking swivel eyed cranks and fruitcakes that popular with right wing nut jobs and they get a lot of media attention.

Once they gain a bit more weight they will struggle to keep the racists and the homophobes in check and they will be exposed for what they really are. A are pathetic, narrow minded with attitudes that are a couple of hundred years out of date.

Unlike the BNP, however, it's harder to tag their policies as being broadly akin to the BNP, even if individual UKIP members DO have views that are akin to those of the BNP.
We can't rely on self-destruction. Bear in mind that UKIP have things that the BNP didn't have, like access to advice from friendly Tory politicians and public relations, wonks helping them formulate policy and donations from the pissed oof Tory right.

As for being exposed for what they really are, learn from history. People offering the promise of a return to a mythical golden age often do well in politics. That their ideas are "out of date" is part of their appeal to some voters.

 

[junglevip]

Obamas second term is a victory for the right. The fact that you think his skin colour outweighs his politics and the wider politics of anybody playing the electoral game in america on the american working class shows how well they've shifted the debate away from class.

You place too much importance on his skin color. Come on DC even the NRA are struggling, get real

 

[ViolentPanda]

UKIP do not come with the BNP's historical baggage and they have already faced a decade plus of claims they are full of racists - hasn't effected their slow steady rise - even at a period when they did have to compete with a confident resurgent BNP. You don't poll around 10% so consistently without it meaning something - and that something points beyond the stereotype of them all being retired majors or loons.

Yep, and shouting "racist" at UKIP has mostly backfired because in the majority of instances their members may be hard-right, but aren't proveably racist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am only in it for the money!

Beating Tory buttocks for money. Has anyone EVER made a more sordid confession on Urban?

 

[junglevip]

Unlike the BNP, however, it's harder to tag their policies as being broadly akin to the BNP, even if individual UKIP members DO have views that are akin to those of the BNP.
We can't rely on self-destruction. Bear in mind that UKIP have things that the BNP didn't have, like access to advice from friendly Tory politicians and public relations, wonks helping them formulate policy and donations from the pissed oof Tory right.

As for being exposed for what they really are, learn from history. People offering the promise of a return to a mythical golden age often do well in politics. That their ideas are "out of date" is part of their appeal to some voters.

Its a bit desperate though and these people are getting smaller. More hardcore maybe but Darwinism will see to them

 

[DotCommunist]

You place too much importance on his skin color. Come on DC even the NRA are struggling, get real

you are the one who mentioned that a black man is president as if that were proof positive that the american right was fucked

let me explain, we may be at cross purposes here: I consider both the democrats and the GOP to be the right and the extreme right. The american left was killed in the 20s. Maybe before that.

 

[junglevip]

Yep, and shouting "racist" at UKIP has mostly backfired because in the majority of instances their members may be hard-right, but aren't proveably racist.

Nonsense. What do you need as proof? One of my photos from the old peoples home with of the old dears with 'I love UKIP' and a swastika tattoo'd across there buttocks. I bet you'd love that!

 

[junglevip]

you are the one who mentioned that a black man is president as if that were proof positive that the american right was fucked

let me explain, we may be at cross purposes here: I consider both the democrats and the GOP to be the right and the extreme right. The american left was killed in the 20s. Maybe before that.

Proof? Lay off the kool aid for a bit DC.

As for the second bit, that's not a widely held view. One I respect nonetheless

 

[sihhi]

UKIP will disintegrate BNP style. They are a bunch of publicity seeking swivel eyed cranks and fruitcakes that popular with right wing nut jobs and they get a lot of media attention.

Once they gain a bit more weight they will struggle to keep the racists and the homophobes in check and they will be exposed for what they really are. A are pathetic, narrow minded with attitudes that are a couple of hundred years out of date.

UKIP won't disintegrate because unlike the Lib-Dems they won't be so stupid as to ever a coalition government either in local politics or in Westminster politics.
They will always be right-wing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its a bit desperate though and these people are getting smaller. More hardcore maybe but Darwinism will see to them

They're not getting smaller, that's the point!
Hard times almost always create a reactionary electorate, because more people, due to their circumstances, are willing to blame scapegoats rather than the true guilty parties. That gives parties like UKIP, who are relatively untainted by racism, a unique "in" to the electorate that the BNP could never have found or exploited. Like I said earlier, learn from history.

 

[junglevip]

UKIP won't disintegrate because unlike the Lib-Dems they won't be so stupid as to ever a coalition government either in local politics or in Westminster politics.
They will always be right-wing.

Au contraire. The slightest whiff of power will have the frustrated wankers shooting themselves in the foot like that bastard sons of Yosemite Sam and Mrs Magoo

 

[sihhi]

Au contraire. The slightest whiff of power will have the frustrated wankers shooting themselves in the foot like that bastard sons of Yosemite Sam and Mrs Magoo

Their entire appeal is not being an establishment party. Any coalition guts that totally.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nonsense. What do you need as proof? One of my photos from the old peoples home with of the old dears with 'I love UKIP' and a swastika tattoo'd across there buttocks. I bet you'd love that!

Not nonsense. How many times have UKIP been accused of having racist policies?
Now, compare your figure to how many times the accusations have been substantiated.

If you do so, all you find is that while individual UKIPers have been found to have previously supported racism, UKIPs policies are not racist. Farage may be a bibulous twat, but he's sharp enough that even in the days of the Libertarian Alliance with Sked, he rarely went beyond a "curb immigration" stance, and he's made sure that UKIP policies don't either. Your strategy is to try to call the party to account for the racism of a handful of proveably racist members, predicated on your assumptions about the type of people who currently support UKIP. As such, your strategy is a waste of time and effort that would be better spent arguing against the merit of specific UKIP policies.

 

[junglevip]

They're not getting smaller, that's the point!
Hard times almost always create a reactionary electorate, because more people, due to their circumstances, are willing to blame scapegoats rather than the true guilty parties. That gives parties like UKIP, who are relatively untainted by racism, a unique "in" to the electorate that the BNP could never have found or exploited. Like I said earlier, learn from history.

Once again its a fair point but you should no from history that we dont learn anything from history. Mouthy chancers, dangerous but will eventually implode. There is plenty of time for them to screw themselves

 

[ViolentPanda]

Au contraire. The slightest whiff of power will have the frustrated wankers shooting themselves in the foot like that bastard sons of Yosemite Sam and Mrs Magoo

That's what you're hoping, at least.
Blind optimism often leads to stubbed toes.

 

[junglevip]

That's what you're hoping, at least.
Blind optimism often leads to stubbed toes.

You give them far too much credit. I agree with much of what you say though

 

[sihhi]

As such, your strategy is a waste of time and effort that would be better spent arguing against the merit of specific UKIP policies.

I see what you did there

 

[junglevip]

As such, your strategy is a waste of time and effort that would be better spent arguing against the merit of specific UKIP policies.

It is better not to give these bullshiters the oxygen of publicity and I argure that your strategy is a waste of time and effort.

'Never wrestle with chimney sweep as you cannot come out clean'

 

[junglevip]

I see what you did there

Yes it was shit

 

[ymu]

Just think how many seats Labour will lose when devolution takes hold!!! No socialist government in England again.

That is the conventional wisdom, but Question Time asked some psephologists to check it for them before their Scotland/Independence edition after the SNP landslide and they said it ain't so. Can't find the clip, but IIRC it wouldn't have changed the result of any postwar election and had little effect on the size of the majorities.

Would be interested in what the urban psephologists think of that, especially re: predicting the impact on future elections. Thatcher made them unelectable in Scotland, but they couldn't win a majority even against the mortally wounded Brown.

 

[gunneradt]

I'd call you a wanker, but that would be an insult to people who masturbate.

such an intellect

 

[gunneradt]

They're not getting smaller, that's the point!
Hard times almost always create a reactionary electorate, because more people, due to their circumstances, are willing to blame scapegoats rather than the true guilty parties. That gives parties like UKIP, who are relatively untainted by racism, a unique "in" to the electorate that the BNP could never have found or exploited. Like I said earlier, learn from history.

Why is wanting a referndum on Europe reactionary? And what has racism go to do with it?

 

[brogdale]

That is the conventional wisdom, but Question Time asked some psephologists to check it for them before their Scotland/Independence edition after the SNP landslide and they said it ain't so. Can't find the clip, but IIRC it wouldn't have changed the result of any postwar election and had little effect on the size of the majorities.

Would be interested in what the urban psephologists think of that, especially re: predicting the impact on future elections. Thatcher made them unelectable in Scotland, but they couldn't win a majority even against the mortally wounded Brown.

Mentioned here:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/01/scotland-labour-majority-win

​

"But how true is this? Without Scotland, Labour would still have won in 1997 (with a majority of 139, down from 179), in 2001 (129, down from 167) and in 2005 (43, down from 66). What those who say that Labour cannot win without Scotland are really saying is that they do not believe Labour can ever win a sizeable majority again. This may or may not be true but it's a different debate. History suggests that England and Wales alone are capable of electing a Labour government when the conditions are right."​

 

[ViolentPanda]

such an intellect

How would you know? It's not as if you're equipped to judge, is it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why is wanting a referndum on Europe reactionary? And what has racism go to do with it?

Read my posts and find out, you goon.

 

[gunneradt]

Read my posts and find out, you goon.

why would I want to read through all your posts to find out some abstract opinion that exists in your bitter world. UKIP has nothing to do with racism except in bitter old lefties' eyes

 

[sihhi]

why would I want to read through all your posts to find out some abstract opinion that exists in your bitter world. UKIP has nothing to do with racism except in bitter old lefties' eyes

Fantastic. Is it beyond the pale to ask you to capitalise on your anti-racist vote on another thread?

 

[brogdale]

why would I want to read through all your posts to find out some abstract opinion that exists in your bitter world. UKIP has nothing to do with racism except in bitter old lefties' eyes

Well...actually it was Dave who said they were racists...

"...fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists, mostly."​

..he a 'bitter old leftie'?

tbf to you, your question of whether calling for an EU referendum is reactionary is an interesting one. It might be easier to answer if you told us why you want the referendum, what outcome you'd favour and for what reasons? Asking for direct democracy is not inherently reactionary, but you could be calling for it for reactionary ulterior reasons.

From my perspective I regard UKIP as useful idiots capable of reducing the chances of a tory government; that's got to be a good thing, and we should all be encouraging tory supporters to pile in behind Nige!