Stolen Bicycle Now Found

[Diamond]

Remove that link diamond. You don't want to blow your cover on a message board

Yep - probably sensible and amended as advised.

 

[Diamond]

I don't know enough of the detail of the OP's situation to comment specifically, but, generally speaking, if I found myself in a situation where stolen goods were recovered after I'd received a payout from my insurer, my concern would be whether the insurance contract had created a legal duty to disclose that fact, such that a failure to do so might amount to an offence under s.3 Fraud Act 2006 (depending on Ghosh dishonesty).

Not sure why you would be raising Ghosh in what would almost certainly be a civil claim, other than to show that you know some basic case-law...

 

[Athos]

Not sure why you would be raising Ghosh in what would almost certainly be a civil claim, other than to show that you know some basic case-law...

No, Ghosh dishonesty is a necessary ingredient of the criminal (not civil) offence under s.3 of the Fraud Act 2006:

'3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a)dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b)intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.'

 

[Diamond]

No, Ghosh dishonesty is a necessary ingredient of the criminal (not civil) offence under s.3 of the Fraud Act 2006:

'3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a)dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b)intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.'

But why would you make a criminal claim given (i) the standard required, and (ii) the existence of a contractual relationship?

It simply doesn't make any sense.

Have you done any litigious work at all?

 

[two sheds]

My thought was purely that, if you can get 6 months in the UK for stealing £3 bottles of water, then it's worth declaring something like this. Particularly since the insurance company is likely to just write it off. If anyone wants to see that as malice that says more about them I think.

 

[Athos]

But why would you make a criminal claim given (i) the standard required, and (ii) the existence of a pre-existing contractual relationship?

It simply doesn't make any sense.

Have you done any litigious work at all?

There is necessarily a pre-existing contractual relationship in every insurance fraud (though not necessarily between the person claiming and the insurer in e.g. public liability claims); many are prosecuted in the criminal courts.

 

[Pickman's model]

But why would you make a criminal claim given (i) the standard required, and (ii) the existence of a contractual relationship?

It simply doesn't make any sense.

Have you done any litigious work at all?

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure why you would be raising Ghosh in what would almost certainly be a civil claim, other than to show that you know some basic case-law...

gosh.

 

[Diamond]

There is necessarily a pre-existing contractual relationship in every insurance fraud; many are prosecuted in the criminal courts.

Really?

But how do you recover loss through criminal courts?

They are about punitive sanctions, not compensation...

 

[Diamond]

I suppose that you might have follow-on damages actions but why not go after that on point in the first place, specifically given the standard of proof required...?

 

[Athos]

Really?

But how do you recover loss through criminal courts?

They are about punitive sanctions, not compensation...

The reason I would be worried about failing to disclose that the stolen property had been returned is not becasue I'd fear an action for recovery of the loss, but because I'd fear recieving a criminal conviction! I would fear the punititive sanction.

 

[Diamond]

The reason I would be worried about failing to disclose that the stolen property had been returned is not becasue I'd fear an action for recovery of the loss, but because I'd fear recieving a criminal conviction! I would fear the punititive sanction.

Fair enough - it seems that we have a different risk appetite.

 

[Athos]

I suppose that you might have follow-on damages actions but why not go after that on point in the first place, specifically given the standard of proof required...?

You're missing the point, I wouldn't be worried about the insurance company coming after me; I'd be worried about the police and CPS.

 

[Athos]

Fair enough - it seems that we have a different risk appetite.

Yes, we must have. Becasue I can't imagine risking my career (which would come to an end with a criminal conviction) for the cost of a bike that's already been replaced.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Lawyer Finds Missing Bike - You Won't Believe What Happens Next!

 

[Diamond]

Excellent. I am genuinely pleased for you.

Posting threads on here is clearly very validating for you, in enabling you to feel superior to more and more people, and I am happy and proud to be part of that process.

And good luck with your other police matter.

Didn't notice this first time around - what is the relevance here to my "other police matter"?

 

[existentialist]

My thought was purely that, if you can get 6 months in the UK for stealing £3 bottles of water, then it's worth declaring something like this. Particularly since the insurance company is likely to just write it off. If anyone wants to see that as malice that says more about them I think.

Forget the prison time - in Diamond's shoes, I'd be more concerned about the professional integrity angle. For which the bar (haha) is almost certainly considerably lower compared to criminal charges.

 

[not-bono-ever]

the ginger case

 

[existentialist]

Didn't notice this first time around - what is the relevance here to my "other police matter"?

I was referring to the racially aggravated assault that you were a victim of.

 

[Dogsauce]

Perhaps if you'd actually reported recovering this properly there's a chance that the bike thief or fence might have got nicked, and then other people might be less likely to fall victim to having their bike taken. For the common good and all that, letting them get away with it seems a bit selfish. Whose bike will get taken next to replace yours?

 

[wiskey]

so what happens if the plod stop you with you old bike? at best they will think you have wasted their time, or perhaps they'll think you just set out to commit insurance fraud and never really had it nicked in the first place...

 

[Diamond]

Considering auctioning the second bike for the server fund now.

I don't really need it and it's just cluttering up my place but it's still quite a nice little runner...

 

[Gromit]

So sir your story is that your bike was stolen, you made a claim and after a little while (say enough time to consider it safe) it just magically turned up and the owner didn't put up a fight when you tried to get it back.

You hid the bike with a mate didn't you?
Made a false claim then got the bike once you got paid.

 

[Diamond]

So sir your story is that your bike was stolen, you made a claim and after a little while (say enough time to consider it safe) it just magically turned up and the owner didn't put up a fight when you tried to get it back.

You hid the bike with a mate didn't you?
Made a false claim then got the bike once you got paid.

Not really - I made a claim the day after it went missing - it was not a false claim, CCTV was examined - it was all properly investigated and that was months ago.

The fact that someone relinquished it so easily does surprise me but it also surprises me that someone had the ability to nick it in the first place.

Welcome to the real world.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

So sir your story is that your bike was stolen, you made a claim and after a little while (say enough time to consider it safe) it just magically turned up and the owner didn't put up a fight when you tried to get it back.

You hid the bike with a mate didn't you?
Made a false claim then got the bike once you got paid.

It's classic insurance fraud. Still, given his profession he'll get open prison after a couple of months in Belmarsh.

Could do a little free lawyering whilst he's in there.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's classic insurance fraud. Still, given his profession he'll get open prison after a couple of months in Belmarsh.

Could do a little free lawyering whilst he's in there.

like that accountant in that prison film

ford open redemption

 

[Diamond]

It's classic insurance fraud. Still, given his profession he'll get open prison after a couple of months in Belmarsh.

I'm not sure that it is insurance fraud at all to be honest.

Where does the actus reus and mens rea combine "at the same time" to constitute a criminal offence?

I pay an insurance policy that covers me for loss - I have suffered loss for several months that has involved a bloody great deal of work on my part to rectify - now I have the good back but that doesn't change the loss/damage that I have had to go through for the past three odd months....

It's really not very difficult to understand...

I pay for an insurance policy that insures me against loss.

I have experienced loss - the policy insures me against that.

 

[Gromit]

It's classic insurance fraud. Still, given his profession he'll get open prison after a couple of months in Belmarsh.

Could do a little free lawyering whilst he's in there.

Not even that. Ankle tag for a month and told not to go within 10 feet of any bicycles from now on and made to sign the cyclist offenders register for a period of 3 years.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm not sure that it is insurance fraud at all to be honest.

Where does the actus reus and mens rea combine "at the same time" to constitute a criminal offence?

I pay an insurance policy that covers me for loss - I have suffered loss for several months that has involved a bloody great deal of work on my part to rectify - now I have the good back but that doesn't change the loss/damage that I have had to go through for the past three odd months....

It's really not very difficult to understand...

I pay for an insurance policy that insures me against loss.

I have experienced loss - the policy insures me against that.

Everyone's innocent in here.

 

[Gromit]

I'm not sure that it is insurance fraud at all to be honest.

Where does the actus reus and mens rea combine "at the same time" to constitute a criminal offence?

I pay an insurance policy that covers me for loss - I have suffered loss for several months that has involved a bloody great deal of work on my part to rectify - now I have the good back but that doesn't change the loss/damage that I have had to go through for the past three odd months....

It's really not very difficult to understand...

I pay for an insurance policy that insures me against loss.

I have experienced loss - the policy insures me against that.

Check the terms and conditions of that policy. There will be something about title of ownership in the case of recovery. You are wilfully breaking those terms for personal profit.

It's their bike the moment you accepted their pay out. If you found someone else's stolen TV would you keep it?