Stephen Lawrence murder trial begins at Old Bailey

[malatesta32]

butchersapron said: ↑I wonder if they'll open up about the help they're alleged to have received from certain quarters?
Fedayen: Which/what quarters would they be??

does someone wanna clarify this stuff?

 

[ExtraRefined]

So an area that has an ethnic minority population of over 30% is seriously racist? Add to the 30% the decent people who don't have any racist attitudes? How many people make an area seriously racist?

30%? What's that figure for, the whole of Greenwich Borough? Because it's certainly not accurate for the area I'm talking about. For Bexley as a whole it's 10%, and for Kent it's 6%.

I'm not convinced it's exactly a guarantee of racial harmony either. Alabama was 25% black in 1960.

 

[Spymaster]

So an area that has an ethnic minority population of over 30% is seriously racist? Add to the 30% the decent people who don't have any racist attitudes? How many people make an area seriously racist?

Fwiw, I agree with you. My blood was up a bit when I made that post yesterday.

I just spent a fair bit of time in the area for a few years and felt highly unwelcome whenever we used the pubs, some of the shops, streets etc. You get used to low-level stuff and curiosity, but in and around Eltham the racism was far more palpable than anywhere else I've ever experienced anywhere in the world. It was a truly awful feeling.

Of course the entire community isn't racist, but sometimes it didn't half feel that way.

 

[bignose1]

it suddenly looks less mysterious

So it wasnt because of the emulsion the case engendered.

 

[TopCat]

Yep, it was the abuse and driving the car directly at the copper. Don't know if they went on 43 but i know they've had serious grief inside so if they did, it doesn't bode well for their long term prospects...

Mr Norris senior made some comments about his lad letting the side down by going on the rule because he was getting aggro from other prisoners.

 

[TopCat]

Fwiw, I agree with you. My blood was up a bit when I made that post yesterday.

I just spent a fair bit of time in the area for a few years and felt highly unwelcome whenever we used the pubs, some of the shops, streets etc. You get used to low-level stuff and curiosity, but in and around Eltham the racism was far more palpable than anywhere else I've ever experienced anywhere in the world. It was a truly awful feeling.

Of course the entire community isn't racist, but sometimes it didn't half feel that way.

Ok, I see your point.

 

[Spymaster]

Mr Norris senior made some comments about his lad letting the side down by going on the rule because he was getting aggro from other prisoners.

So going on 43 makes you some kind of wanker in the criminal community?

 

[TopCat]

So going on 43 makes you some kind of wanker in the criminal community?

Yes.

 

[Citizen66]

The page still works for me, so I can PM the link if you really want (not posting it here).

Cheers appreciate it if you could.

Although will have to check tonight as tapatalk won't let me access PMs.

 

[butchersapron]

butchersapron said: ↑I wonder if they'll open up about the help they're alleged to have received from certain quarters?
Fedayen: Which/what quarters would they be??

does someone wanna clarify this stuff?

That coppers with long and profitable relationships with Norris and others did their best to make the investigation go wrong - whether through simple threats, fear of exposure or money.

 

[bignose1]

Yes.

Yeah because your in with grasses, nonces, paedos, rapists , molesters and thats just the screws....

 

[Spymaster]

Yes.

Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?

 

[malatesta32]

That coppers with long and profitable relationships with Norris and others did their best to make the investigation go wrong - whether though simple threats, fear of exposure or money.

thanks butchers! not up on this underworld stuff! someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the 'lawrence 2' may have info that is yet to come out about the other 3 and also that the mum of 1 had perjured herself. the legal - and extra-legal - repercussions have yet to play out then!

 

[bignose1]

Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?

When we got offered the choice by the screws as they had set us up for a hiding (Rochdale 8 - 1980) it was basically with the nonces/grasses, so not necessarily solitary( to go on soilitary is up to the prison authorities) The principal screw was a BM organiser, Brian Baldwin and his thinking was clear..put em in with the nonces..to further criminalise us. We declined it and took our chances in the shower...thankfully the lube worked wonders...

 

[Citizen66]

Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?

It's the beast wing.

 

[Spymaster]

When we got offered the choice by the screws as they had set us up for a hiding (Rochdale 8 - 1980) it was basically with the nonces/grasses, so not necessarily solitary( to go on soilitary is up to the prison authorities) The principal screw was a BM organiser, Brian Baldwin and his thinking was clear..put em in with the nonces..to further criminalise us. We declined it and took our chances in the shower...thankfully the lube worked wonders...

So it's just a different wing where all the R43 prisoners mix with each other?

Aren't nonces and the like just as likely to get done by other prisoners on rule 43 for something else?

 

[TopCat]

So it's just a different wing where all the R43 prisoners mix with each other?

Yes.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?

Nonces, grasses, coppers and those who need to hide behind the screws for protection, like Noris. No 'self respecting' criminal would want to mix with nonces or ask the screws for protection.

 

[London_Calling]

So an area that has an ethnic minority population of over 30% is seriously racist? Add to the 30% the decent people who don't have any racist attitudes? How many people make an area seriously racist?

The white population of Eltham is 86.7%, which is below the national average of 92.2% but higher than the London district area average.[5] 12.3% of people were born outside the United Kingdom. The largest minority group in Eltham are Black-African and Black-Caribbean people, who compose 5.8% of the total population. Asians are 3.7% of Eltham's population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltham

So given the influx from Eastern Europe to mainly poorer areas of London, it seems to be about, or maybe a tad over, 10% non-white which, just based on driving through, is a surprise to me. Don't see too many non-whites.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

So it's just a different wing where all the R43 prisoners mix with each other?

Aren't nonces and the like just as likely to get done by other prisoners on rule 43 for something else?

No, cos then you'd get slung back in with regular prisoners who'd know you're a wrong'un.

 

[story]

So what do you suggest? That individuals are singled out for apparently having racist motives which although never expressed might be affecting their behaviour towards others? Who decides?

No.

I am no more in favour of trying to identify or punish thought crime than you.

I hadn't got further than making the point that silent insidious racism does exist, and does have effects, and then asking the question "How can one challenge silent and hidden racism?"

I think it's a valid question, but I have no answer. I thought airing it here might be interesting. So far the response has been "There's nothing that can be done about it." Perhaps that is the best current answer. Perhaps the only racism we can realistically tackle is that which is overtly stated.

But there are people - some of whom have posted on this thread - who say they feel it is pointless or exhausting to challenge even overt racism.

It seems redundant to state that such laxity allows it to become or remain institutional.

 

[TopCat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltham

That's out of date and inaccurate. I will try and get the precise figure's.

 

[ddraig]

some stats in this bbc bit
'healing an open wound'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16315568

Bordered by the wards of Kidbrooke and Shooters Hill to the north and the borough of Bromley to the south, black and minority ethnic people make up more than a third of its population of 78,380. This compares with 41% in the borough of Greenwich and about 31% across London.
In 1991, 6.3% of Eltham's population was made up of black and minority ethnic people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep, could be true but wouldn't that be true of soldiers from other countries too, is what I'm getting at; it seems to be SA in particular.

RSA's armed forces absorbed a lot of "overflow" in the '70s (literally tens of thousands of well-trained Rhodesian regulars) at the expense of some of their own not-so-well-trained elite units, which put quite a few people on the mercenary circuit. Bear in mind to that for regimes like South Africa, use of mercenaries (often former special forces) provided an element of cut-out and some plausible deniability if they wanted to go into a neighbouring country and piss around.

 

[butchersapron]

Very interesting, judge says Dobson repeatably lied to put Norris in the clear...

 

[ViolentPanda]

The white working classes are one of Liddle's bugbears. He does have a point about some of it.

That's one of Liddle's stock-in-trades, though. He constructs a tirade around a kernel of fact.

 

[butchersapron]

So 12 years plus so far...No guarantee of release once min term is served

 

[frogwoman]

Is r43 solitary, or just mixed-in with a different set of prisoners?

it's the nonce wing isn't it?

 

[butchersapron]

Dobson - 15 years 2 months min

 

[malatesta32]

oh dear.