Stephen Lawrence murder trial begins at Old Bailey

[Pickman's model]

Neville Lawrence was Paul Dacre's decorator iirc. That's why the DM took up the case.

it suddenly looks less mysterious

 

[London_Calling]

I loathe Dacre and the Mail as much as anyone but I think everyone in news learned something from the Mail’s ‘sue us’ headline, not least that later advances in DNA analysis can make you look a complete wanker (by potentially, or actually for a number of years now passed, prejudicing the possibility of a fair trail).

 

[LLETSA]

I used to hear casual racism in Brixton all the time. Of course there are racists here, but in the thirty-odd years I've lived here things have changed for the better and it will elsewhere too. It's about a critical mass of people who make it clear it's out of order.

That's assuming that the same kind of stability continues. What's been going on in the world economy for the past three years suggests strongly that this will not be the case. Progress is not cumulative. Outside of the relatively small circles of committed political activists, opinions and attitudes are more fluid. Yesterday's casual racist is also tomorrow's casual racist. Yesterday's hardline racist is tomorrow's racist street activist or even killer. As I said earlier, racism hasn't gone away, it's just that people feel the need to be quieter about it. That's something that those who work in certain types of profession and/or spend most of their time among politicos tend to forget, I think.

And racism exists among all ethnic groups. Has nobody ever experienced the racism of those originating on the Indian sub-continent towards whites or blacks, or that of black people towards Asians?

 

[London_Calling]

And racism exists among all ethnic groups. Has nobody ever experienced the racism of those originating on thew Indian sub-continent towards whites or blacks, or that of black people towards Asians?

Yep, I hear it a lot. Mainly, because of the mix I interact with, it's Indian/Bangladeshi's about pretty well everyone - so many dreadful racists, and some Eastern Europeans towards other Eastern Europeans. I have to say some of the latter are also really very switched on and have embraced 'London' in all its forms inc. tolerance on a level they had no sense of at all before coming here.

Some of it is so stupid as well, almost all English people are on crack or coke, all white women are sluts, etc, etc. Same old, I suppose.

 

[coley]

that's the grounds for appeal, right there.

I have had the impression throughout this trial that the defence have just gone 'through the motions' keeping their powder dry for the appeal

 

[LLETSA]

Yep, I hear it a lot. Mainly, because of the mix I interact with, it's Indian/Bangladeshi's about pretty well everyone - so many dreadful racists, and some Eastern Europeans towards other Eastern Europeans. I have to say some of the latter are also really very switched on and have embraced 'London' in all its forms inc. tolerance on a level they had no sense of at all before coming here.

Some of it is so stupid as well, almost all English people are on crack or coke, all white women are sluts, etc, etc. Same old, I suppose.

This is just the thing-as people congratulate themselves that overt racism has supposedly disappeared, whole new categories of racist have appeared whose influence is bound to give succour to indiginous racists.

Also, we must not forget that it is in the post-McPherson etc era that an overtly racist party began to gain an unprecedented level of support while the terminal decline of the socialism etc adhered to by racism's most active opponents deepened. Just because that racist party is currently having problems, it doesn't mean the reasons for its support are disappearing. The economic crisis is bound to only deepen them.

 

[dtb]

I have had the impression throughout this trial that the defence have just gone 'through the motions' keeping their powder dry for the appeal

yep, seems like they hardly offered up any defence at all

 

[Mrs Magpie]

...oh yeah, a quick message to Alexander Baron ("author" of the article "Drop Dead Doreen Lawrence") - Fuck you.

Alexander Baron died over ten years ago.

 

[story]

How on earth would he know what someone else is thinking?

So far as anyone is able to discern what another person is thinking or feeling, he probably got there the same way that you or I might: inference based on body language, instinct, previous experience, the context, other behaviours of the individual and so forth. He himself was very reluctant to assume there was any racism, and by giving his work colleagues the benefit of the doubt for many months, allowed a tricky situation to become entrenched and increasingly difficult to resolve. When the issue finally got addressed, one of the points against him was that he had not been bothered by it up til now, so what had changed.

Anyway, the veracity of his interpretation is kinda beside the point here. You have neatly illustrated the problem in such a situation. Since we cannot really know what another person is thinking, it's easy to miss the silent hidden racism and thus leave it unchallenged.

 

[stethoscope]

Alexander Baron died over ten years ago.

Not the author/screenwriter Mrs M.

 

[danny la rouge]

Alexander Baron died over ten years ago.

Not the novelist.

 

[_angel_]

Yes, but you live in Brixton in cosmopolitan London.

Yeah, where someone got stabbed to death because he was black.

Meanwhile, in the rest of the country, casual racism is alive and well, ime.

In my home town 'paki' is used in everyday language by many. It perpetuates through confirmation bias. If I object, it is usually me who is viewed as having a problem.

 

[paolo]

what I thought was a) we all knew they werefucking guilty; b) everyone also knows suing for libel is a rich man's game. Frankly the dm could have claimed I killed sl and I wouldn't have been able to sue. So, the mail was throwing its weight about and for once its desire to sell papers and people's anger about the murder coincided

All true but I'm not sure what you're actually concluding?

 

[LLETSA]

So far as anyone is able to discern what another person is thinking or feeling, he probably got there the same way that you or I might: inference based on body language, instinct, previous experience, the context, other behaviours of the individual and so forth. He himself was very reluctant to assume there was any racism, and by giving his work colleagues the benefit of the doubt for many months, allowed a tricky situation to become entrenched and increasingly difficult to resolve. When the issue finally got addressed, one of the points against him was that he had not been bothered by it up til now, so what had changed.

Anyway, the veracity of his interpretation is kinda beside the point here. You have neatly illustrated the problem in such a situation. Since we cannot really know what another person is thinking, it's easy to miss the silent hidden racism and thus leave it unchallenged.

How can you challenge something that's silent or hidden?

You can't second-guess what somebody might be thinking and go after them on that basis.

 

[Pickman's model]

All true but I'm not sure what you're actually concluding?

in part that your conclusions about the killers and the mail were a mite facile.

 

[story]

How can you challenge something that's silent or hidden?

You can't second-guess what somebody might be thinking and go after them on that basis.

That's the point I'm making, LLETSA.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, to which The39thStep was responding.

Hidden, silent racism does exist, and how does one challenge that.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's the point I'm making, LLETSA.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, to which The39thStep was responding.

Hidden, silent racism does exist, and how does one challenge that.

you have a witch hunt of course

 

[Citizen66]

Yeah, where someone got stabbed to death because he was black.

Who?

 

[Spymaster]

...oh yeah, a quick message to Alexander Baron ("author" of the article "Drop Dead Doreen Lawrence") - Fuck you.

Any chance of a link to this article?

I've googled for it but all the links are dead.

 

[Pickman's model]

Any chance of a link to this article?

I've googled for it but all the links are dead.

only because you don't know how to fucking google. i'm not linking to a far-right website, but if you google "drop dead doreen lawrence" (including quotation marks) you'll find it.

 

[butchersapron]

Any chance of a link to this article?

I've googled for it but all the links are dead.

I wouldn't bother, it's not like Baron is anything but an open racist, anti-semitic homophobe. It's not an article from a paper or anything.

 

[Spymaster]

only because you don't know how to fucking google. i'm not linking to a far-right website, but if you google "drop dead doreen lawrence" (including quotation marks) you'll find it.

Nope. Links are all still dead.

I did come across a post elsewhere saying that Google have removed all the links to it. Tried Yahoo, same shit.

 

[Spymaster]

I wouldn't bother, it's not like Baron is anything but an open racist, anti-semitic homophobe. It's not an article from a paper or anything.

Just some cunt's internet rant?

 

[Pickman's model]

were working 30 mins ago

it's on this site anyway w ww infotext manuscripts.o rg/

 

[LLETSA]

That's the point I'm making, LLETSA.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, to which The39thStep was responding.

Hidden, silent racism does exist, and how does one challenge that.

You can't challenge silent racism. And there's no need to challenge racism that isn't expressed.

 

[Spymaster]

Cheers, Pickers.

 

[butchersapron]

Just some cunt's internet rant?

Pretty much. Oddball character. Not worth discussing or wasting time thinking about really.

 

[LLETSA]

I wouldn't bother, it's not like Baron is anything but an open racist, anti-semitic homophobe. It's not an article from a paper or anything.

Is he that fascist-friendly oddball who's in the Islamic Party or some such?

 

[Spymaster]

were working 30 mins ago

it's on this site anyway w ww infotext manuscripts.o rg/

Getting this:

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /poetry.html on this server.
Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

Anyway, fuck it. I get the gist.

 

[butchersapron]

Is it that fascist-friendly oddball who's in the Islamic Party or some such?

The Islamic Party did use his anti-gay materials (Mohammad Naseem who ran brum RESPECT was the link). He also took the SWP/Bookmarks bookshop to court for stocking searchlight years ago as well. (And that's more attention than he needs i reckon)