Spanish Civil War

[co-op]

Well first off then, have you read his books on Spain?

I read The Spanish Civil War many years ago. I wasn't impressed.

 

[malatesta32]

Got to say I'm amazed by the way people keep pushing Anthony Beevor as worth the effort. I think he thinks he's an objective liberal academic but he's obviously packed full of knee-jerk right-wing tory assumptions which I think come through as plain as day. Given that he went to Winchester and then Sandhurst his prejudices may not be that surprising really. Is it because he's so anti-soviet that all the anarchists like him? Otherwise it's a mystery to me.

i think its cos instead of 'great mens history' he talks about soldiers on the ground, civillians etc and draws on peoples history (diaries, interviews etc). he is also good on social history, paris is really interesting esp about Communists. he is a 'good writer' as well. of course the military background hardly appeals to anarchists!

 

[malatesta32]

got to agree with butchers here, in is SCW, his analysis of why anarchism appealed to the rural and industrial workers is spot on. the hybrid of collectivisation and syndicalism is well identified. he is quite CALM as well. some historians can be a bit shrill of over-stylised.

 

[co-op]

of course the military background hardly appeals to anarchists!

It was probably reading his second world war stuff that has really turned me against him. He can barely conceal his support for the wehrmacht against the red army.

 

[malatesta32]

and instead of fannying about here im going back to it!

 

[malatesta32]

really? i thought he had quite the admiration for the red armys stoicism and guts, tho not once they got berlin (i skipped most of that section, orrible!).

 

[Joe Reilly]

Go with Beevor and Ronald Frazer Blood of Spain for a more general view, then for a political analysis of the divisions within the left get Felix Morrow's Revolution and Counter revolution in Spain.

Morrow was in Barcelona and although he was from some miniscule Trotskiest group his eyewitness account of how the anarchists let the revolution slip thru their fingers is a real eye opener. He regularly visited the anarchist HQ in Via liaetana and documented how the stalinists (who you will want to shoot after reading this book) gradually built themselves up to be able to launch a murderous assault against the revolution in May 37.

The Morrow book should be regarded as essential reading for anyone interested in politics or history and not just for the depiction of the situation in Spain

 

[Idris2002]

The Morrow book should be regarded as essential reading for anyone interested in politics or history and not just for the depiction of the situation in Spain

Really? I remember the Bristol Strangler being quite sniffy about it, while wiping his hands on his apron.

 

[William of Walworth]

Preston is not an especially good writer, IMO, but he has the true historian's virtue: he spends years and years burrowing away in the archives. He is fantastically well informed and that is the strength of his books.

I do not doubt that his latest book on the Spanish Holocaust is another brilliantly researched work. I haven't read it and probably won't read it, because I'm not sure I can stand to read so many details of so many horrors.

My guess, however, is that the book will become increasingly important as some people try - either naively or dishonestly - to down play the crimes of Franco and his people

I think the thing I would give massive credit to Preston for, despite not sharing his take on the war itself at all, is that during the long years of the dictatorship he was responsible for a lot of the historiography on the topic, full-stop, and a lot of historians in the country, of all different positions, respect him for that alone.

I do agree with butchers' earlier comment that Preston takes a 'great men of history' approach, obvious limitations to that. Nor is he the best writer in style, but I also agree with JHE and Lo Siento. Very thorough researcher, fluent in Spanish too ... what does Spanish in a Scouse accent sound like I wonder?

I can understand why he's so well respected by others, very much including in Spain.

I suppose I'm a bit biased in his favour though because he used to be my tutor a zillion years ago (early eighties).

I feel I need to brace myself and face up to reading 'The Spanish Holocaust' -- seriously harrowing though everyone says it is ...

 

[redsquirrel]

i think its cos instead of 'great mens history' he talks about soldiers on the ground, civillians etc and draws on peoples history (diaries, interviews etc). he is also good on social history, paris is really interesting esp about Communists. he is a 'good writer' as well. of course the military background hardly appeals to anarchists!

That's definitely true and not something to be overlooked.

 

[malatesta32]

so much politically history is written in quite a pedantic manner. beevor writes with verve and pace. sorry for banging on but i read 200 odd pages of spanish civil war yesterday then went 'crivvens! its 9 at night' and i hadnt even had me tea! that qualifies as a good writer here.

 

[butchersapron]

Preston's The Politics of Revenge Fascism and the Military in Twentieth Century Spain is worth the read, i expect the latest one mentioned above a few times updates a fair bit of it, bit it's very good on falangism and the army's relationship with the the state and the various other intra-elite battles post-war.

 

[malatesta32]

Hugh Thomas is shit, fucking appalling. Beevor remains the best book for the OP.

you're totally right. i just reread (parts) and he claims FAI worked with falange citing one dubious example and slags durutti column off for incompetence at madrid which given the circumstances they did quite well.

 

[Blagsta]

tbf, I think Vini Reilly had a dodgy paella that night or something

 

[CNT36]

you're totally right. i just reread (parts) and he claims FAI worked with falange citing one dubious example and slags durutti column off for incompetence at madrid which given the circumstances they did quite well.

Maybe he should read Beevors book as well. i don't know enough to comment on Durutti specifically but its suspect to single out the column when incompetence was common around Madrid. Competency seemed in some cases secondary to party discipline including amongst the international brigades. Demolished a lot of romantic notions. Preston heavily criticises Durutti as well in the Spanish holocaust blaming him, anarchists and released prisoners for that portion of the holocaust committed behind republican lines. Preston left the impression that rather than taking power many of the actions taken by other republicans against the Anarchists were necessary to stop this violence. I recently listened to an episode of 'In our time' during which Preston and the other contributors managed not to mention the Anarchists at all.

 

[malatesta32]

just finished the spanish chapter edit! hurrah! now catapulting back to 1990s. weird.

 

[cantsin]

Maybe he should read Beevors book as well. i don't know enough to comment on Durutti specifically but its suspect to single out the column when incompetence was common around Madrid. Competency seemed in some cases secondary to party discipline including amongst the international brigades. Demolished a lot of romantic notions. Preston heavily criticises Durutti as well in the Spanish holocaust blaming him, anarchists and released prisoners for that portion of the holocaust committed behind republican lines. Preston left the impression that rather than taking power many of the actions taken by other republicans against the Anarchists were necessary to stop this violence. I recently listened to an episode of 'In our time' during which Preston and the other contributors managed not to mention the Anarchists at all.

I listened to a R4 discussion on Orwells ' Homage...' recently where the phrases 'anarchist' and 'working class' werent mentioned in half an hour, all this in front of school kids who asked questions etc.

 

[malatesta32]

i mean how? just how?

 

[malatesta32]

Maybe he should read Beevors book as well. i don't know enough to comment on Durutti specifically but its suspect to single out the column when incompetence was common around Madrid. Competency seemed in some cases secondary to party discipline including amongst the international brigades. Demolished a lot of romantic notions. Preston heavily criticises Durutti as well in the Spanish holocaust blaming him, anarchists and released prisoners for that portion of the holocaust committed behind republican lines. Preston left the impression that rather than taking power many of the actions taken by other republicans against the Anarchists were necessary to stop this violence. I recently listened to an episode of 'In our time' during which Preston and the other contributors managed not to mention the Anarchists at all.

beevors book is best! durruti was a genuine folk hero at the time along with the IB at madrid it seems by most accounts. certainly judging by the size of his funeral. incompetence would hardly be exclusive in a militia/peoples army. they werent trained after all! im not sure i cd stomach the spanish holocaust book just now. the stuff i researched on the treatment of prisoners is pretty horrible and needs tempering with stories'like george wheeler's who survived francos prison.

 

[J Ed]

If you are looking for a slightly more 'feel good' account, you may enjoy Mississippi to Madrid: Memoir of a Black American in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade

 

[CNT36]

I listened to a R4 discussion on Orwells ' Homage...' recently where the phrases 'anarchist' and 'working class' werent mentioned in half an hour, all this in front of school kids who asked questions etc.

Libcom's RSS just posted something about Beevors book and one of the links led to this - http://libcom.org/library/spilling-the-spanish-beans-george-orwell

 

[butchersapron]

Just in passing as i know we have some people in spain on the boards:

The Photographic Archive of Barcelona has opened the exhibition ‘Postwar Barcelona, 1939-1945′, that shows photographs of one of the darkest periods of the Catalan capital. The exhibition shows a series of photographs from the official Francoist view of daily life of postwar Barcelona, including official visits from Nazi Germany and fascist Italy.The show runs until September 28.

 

[Idris2002]

The original post here isn't SCW related, but the following thread is:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/remember-spain-and-mexico-take-no-risks/

 

[dessiato]

The original post here isn't SCW related, but the following thread is:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/remember-spain-and-mexico-take-no-risks/

I'll try to get to that when I go up north.

 

[butchersapron]

In passing: Spanish civil war monument must be pulled down, court rules

Less than two years after a monument was raised in Madrid to the 35,000 volunteers who joined the International Brigades to fight the fascist-backed forces of General Francisco Franco during the Spanish civil war, a court has ordered that it be pulled down.

The monument to the volunteers from 53 countries, paid for by public subscription and placed in the gardens of the Complutense University, where many died defending Madrid and Spanish democracy against Franco's rebels, has enraged some rightwingers.

(And look at the name of the far-right lawyer behind it)

 

[frogwoman]

 

[Favelado]

The young lady in this famous photo has died. It was taken when she was 17 in 1936.

RIP Marina

http://www.publico.es/493189/muere-marina-ginesta-la-sonrisa-que-planto-cara-al-fascismo

 

[zahir]

I’m not sure if this is the right thread for it but here’s an interview with Ken Loach about his film Land and Freedom.

 

[William of Walworth]

Kinnell!!

1995, that film was released, according to the Wiki entry!

I would have guessed at least ten years after that .... and I did see it once, back in the day .....

I'm not so old though, that I can't immediately spot an unwarned seven-year-old thread bump!

 

[DaveCinzano]

Of interest: article about Australian and New Zealand volunteers in the Spanish Civil War

‘Brothers in arms, a long way from home’: the first Australians to fight fascism overseas

The discovery of a rare photo from the Spanish civil war raises questions about why volunteers from Australia are not commemorated

www.theguardian.com