Spain anti-politics protests
- Thread starter Lo Siento.
- Start date
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
just got back from an neighbourhood assembly in Lavapies (its just south of sol). Maybe 500-1000 people there, with another couple of dozen around the city today. We debated (and voted on) what they should do with the camp in sol, but there was no consensus when I left - some wanted to maintain the camp until we get a concrete demand met, and others to take it down on our own terms, focus on the neighbourhood assemblies and use sol as a monthly meeting spot to bring the assemblies together.
Overall: was a very hopeful exercise in neighbourhood democracy, even if lots of people found it difficult to adapt to the rules of debate they were trying to adopt. If this is going to have a future this is it I reckon.
Overall: was a very hopeful exercise in neighbourhood democracy, even if lots of people found it difficult to adapt to the rules of debate they were trying to adopt. If this is going to have a future this is it I reckon.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
go on...
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
When I was at the camp in Barcelona on friday and around 60 people stood around the TV vans debating after forcing the camermen to put their cameras away, a couple of guys in the crowd shouted out boastfully that they were Cules (Barcelona fans) but they would prefer the team to lose rather than have the camp moved. one was a skin type, the other was beardy. Everyone laughed.
I don't think Barcelona fans are right wing leaning. The whole of society is reflected in the fans that follow the team. Most hooligans are independentistas and therefore by default, left wing and anti fascists.
The fans have no reason to attack the camp as people there too are Barcelona fans and the support for the protests has been widespread with people literally right across the city banging saucepans on their balconies at 9 0'clock each night in solidarity.
I think the police use the cup victory celebrations at the top of the Ramblas to practice crowd control/riot tactics as it never fails to go off. If anything the authorities will be worried about the fans and camp forming one large protest come riot as the police and the authorities are clearly everyones enemy.
It doesn't matter that the politicains drag their carcasses to the football games to be seen. The people that vote for them are half dead anyway. Old cunts. Most young people are anti. 12,000,000 abstentions and one million white protest votes and despite that in Catalonia a Trotskiest/anarchosindicalist assembly got 110 councillors in.
I don't think Barcelona fans are right wing leaning. The whole of society is reflected in the fans that follow the team. Most hooligans are independentistas and therefore by default, left wing and anti fascists.
The fans have no reason to attack the camp as people there too are Barcelona fans and the support for the protests has been widespread with people literally right across the city banging saucepans on their balconies at 9 0'clock each night in solidarity.
I think the police use the cup victory celebrations at the top of the Ramblas to practice crowd control/riot tactics as it never fails to go off. If anything the authorities will be worried about the fans and camp forming one large protest come riot as the police and the authorities are clearly everyones enemy.
It doesn't matter that the politicains drag their carcasses to the football games to be seen. The people that vote for them are half dead anyway. Old cunts. Most young people are anti. 12,000,000 abstentions and one million white protest votes and despite that in Catalonia a Trotskiest/anarchosindicalist assembly got 110 councillors in.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Last night Plaza Catalunya held its own. The protestors formed barriers 3 deep at all entrances to the centre of the square. The police attacked the football fans and there was trouble but it didn't arrive to the camp. Some fans queued to sign support for the camp.
In the photo a Barcelona fan (Culé) with a Placard that reads, "Will exchange the Champions for a real democracy"
http://www.elpais.com/fotografia/espana/Cule/indignado/elpdiaesp/20110528elpepunac_3/Ies/
There were reports last night that in Malaga a group of fascists had come near to the camp. Not heard anything more about it. There are now over 700 camps all over Spain. This afternoon demos...
In the photo a Barcelona fan (Culé) with a Placard that reads, "Will exchange the Champions for a real democracy"
http://www.elpais.com/fotografia/espana/Cule/indignado/elpdiaesp/20110528elpepunac_3/Ies/
There were reports last night that in Malaga a group of fascists had come near to the camp. Not heard anything more about it. There are now over 700 camps all over Spain. This afternoon demos...
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Slideshow of some of yesterdays assemblies in the neighbourhoods. The spirit is spreading from the squares to local level. There was a tradition of this in the 70's here with the neighbour's associations being combative and winning many of their demands through protest. It was part of the movement against Franco.
http://www.20minutos.es/galeria/7520/0/0/asambleas/barrios/15M/
http://www.20minutos.es/galeria/7520/0/0/asambleas/barrios/15M/
Luther Blissett
Nomadologist
Police Brutality At Plaça Catalunya
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
A photo of the human wall defending the square in Barcelona on saturday night.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photojuanfra/5771470267/
Word is coming through that a solidarity protest camp of 1000 people in Paris has been broken up by police. There is now as a result a protest outside the french embassy in Barcelona.
http://instagr.am/p/E6FLh/
http://instagr.am/p/E6HB5/
The camps have voted to contiune till tuesday, then they'll vote again.
The movement is showing signs of growing confidence. We now know that if the authorities try to evict a camp, thousands more people turn out to put it back together again. Something has got to give.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photojuanfra/5771470267/
Word is coming through that a solidarity protest camp of 1000 people in Paris has been broken up by police. There is now as a result a protest outside the french embassy in Barcelona.
http://instagr.am/p/E6FLh/
http://instagr.am/p/E6HB5/
The camps have voted to contiune till tuesday, then they'll vote again.
The movement is showing signs of growing confidence. We now know that if the authorities try to evict a camp, thousands more people turn out to put it back together again. Something has got to give.
shaman75
Well-Known Member
Went to the 'assembly' at Trafalgar Square today...
... was quite interesting, although very dominated by spanish and greeks. not many brits unhappy with the system it seems...
more at: http://entoptika.co.uk/2011/05/29/europeanrevolution
... was quite interesting, although very dominated by spanish and greeks. not many brits unhappy with the system it seems...
more at: http://entoptika.co.uk/2011/05/29/europeanrevolution
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Military defence of protestor camps
Hey Spanish protestors, do you know why?
The military before a revolution begins, start on the side of the establishment because whoever they backed in the past has become the establishment of today.
In a revolutionary situation, the military were all conservatives, backing the existing king and their generals but now they are looking to revolutionaries to see what they have to say. You need to win support in the military along with support from other sections of society.
The general population includes the military and includes the brothers and sisters of those in the military, the parents of those in the military. If you win over the families of the military then you can win over the military themselves.
So if you are winning the general population then you are making inroads into the winning the military.
Beforehand the military had never heard of you. They were conservatives. They backed the king and their generals.
Now they have some sympathy for you. Good. See that as an opportunity to turn their sympathy into positive support - helping to guard the protest camps.
Absolutely do not throw away any sympathy you have earned with the military by calling them all "fascists".
Instead, call them "patriots" who are the only ones who can come to the defence of the people and their rights as citizens to protest.
Say, the honour of Spain is at stake. Spain must be a proud democracy to stand tall in the world, with our military proudly defending our democratic rights. The Catalan police shamed Spain by attacking protestors. This must not be repeated. A police state is bad for Spain.
Build a narrative for the military to believe in.
Don't shout at the military and spit at them if they offer you help. Embrace them, say that they are your national army, the army and the people are one, the army must come and defend the people.
Right now, the forces of conservatism are bad-mouthing you all to the military. You must anticipate those lies. Counter the lies which the conservatives will tell about you. Do not embarrass the military by burning national flags.
If the military are not allowed to come to guard the camp initially in full uniform with their weapons then invite them down in plain clothes disarmed the first time. Get to know them. Let them get to know you. The next time they can come with their weapons and in uniform to defend the camp.
Especially find good sympathetic military officers who know the military and who know about democracy and the rights of the citizens to protest. Liase with these officers. Those good sympathetic officers are your best hope of winning the army. Treat them well.
Large numbers of protestors are good but if the police have weapons they can defeat any number of peaceful civilians so you need military support just in case the police turn nasty again.
The Spanish protestors have the higher moral ground and that is very useful in a revolution, if you know how to use it. You need to appeal for support from the military to get a self-defence force loyal to the protestors, organised and in place 24/7 as soon as possible.
The higher moral ground without a loyal defence force is not a strong position.
The conservative opponents you are protesting against right now have state police commanders saying to your political opponents - "No worries, we are not concerned if they have the higher moral ground, they will bleed just as easily, just let us attack them, round up their leaders, we know how to eliminate these protestors."
That is being planned and talked about now. Right now. You are in danger, all of you.
But don't panic, if you secure your defence as soon as possible you will do better.
But think of all those protests who had the higher moral ground yet were shot by the military. Remember the Tiananmin Square massacre in China.
Do not be ignorant my friends. Ignorance, naivety can get protestors killed.
Protestors must be prepared. They must secure their defences. Protestors must ask the military to secure their defences. They must do this while there is still time.
Hey Spanish protestors, do you know why?
The military before a revolution begins, start on the side of the establishment because whoever they backed in the past has become the establishment of today.
In a revolutionary situation, the military were all conservatives, backing the existing king and their generals but now they are looking to revolutionaries to see what they have to say. You need to win support in the military along with support from other sections of society.
The general population includes the military and includes the brothers and sisters of those in the military, the parents of those in the military. If you win over the families of the military then you can win over the military themselves.
So if you are winning the general population then you are making inroads into the winning the military.
Beforehand the military had never heard of you. They were conservatives. They backed the king and their generals.
Now they have some sympathy for you. Good. See that as an opportunity to turn their sympathy into positive support - helping to guard the protest camps.
Absolutely do not throw away any sympathy you have earned with the military by calling them all "fascists".
Instead, call them "patriots" who are the only ones who can come to the defence of the people and their rights as citizens to protest.
Say, the honour of Spain is at stake. Spain must be a proud democracy to stand tall in the world, with our military proudly defending our democratic rights. The Catalan police shamed Spain by attacking protestors. This must not be repeated. A police state is bad for Spain.
Build a narrative for the military to believe in.
Don't shout at the military and spit at them if they offer you help. Embrace them, say that they are your national army, the army and the people are one, the army must come and defend the people.
Right now, the forces of conservatism are bad-mouthing you all to the military. You must anticipate those lies. Counter the lies which the conservatives will tell about you. Do not embarrass the military by burning national flags.
If the military are not allowed to come to guard the camp initially in full uniform with their weapons then invite them down in plain clothes disarmed the first time. Get to know them. Let them get to know you. The next time they can come with their weapons and in uniform to defend the camp.
Especially find good sympathetic military officers who know the military and who know about democracy and the rights of the citizens to protest. Liase with these officers. Those good sympathetic officers are your best hope of winning the army. Treat them well.
Large numbers of protestors are good but if the police have weapons they can defeat any number of peaceful civilians so you need military support just in case the police turn nasty again.
The Spanish protestors have the higher moral ground and that is very useful in a revolution, if you know how to use it. You need to appeal for support from the military to get a self-defence force loyal to the protestors, organised and in place 24/7 as soon as possible.
The higher moral ground without a loyal defence force is not a strong position.
The conservative opponents you are protesting against right now have state police commanders saying to your political opponents - "No worries, we are not concerned if they have the higher moral ground, they will bleed just as easily, just let us attack them, round up their leaders, we know how to eliminate these protestors."
That is being planned and talked about now. Right now. You are in danger, all of you.
But don't panic, if you secure your defence as soon as possible you will do better.
But think of all those protests who had the higher moral ground yet were shot by the military. Remember the Tiananmin Square massacre in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
At about 1:00 am, the army finally reached Tiananmen Square and waited for orders from the government. The soldiers had been told not to open fire, but they had also been told that they must clear the square by 6:00 am – with no exceptions or delays. They made a final offer of amnesty if the few thousand remaining students would leave. About 4:00 am, student leaders put the matter to a vote: Leave the square, or stay and face the consequences.
Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs) rolled up the roads, firing ahead and off to the sides, perhaps killing or wounding their own soldiers in the process. BBC reporter Kate Adie spoke of "indiscriminate fire" within the square. Eyewitness reporter Charlie Cole also saw Chinese soldiers firing Type 56 assault rifles into the crowd near an APC which had just been torched and its crew killed; many were killed and wounded that night.
Students who sought refuge in buses were pulled out by groups of soldiers and beaten with heavy sticks. Even students attempting to leave the square were beset by soldiers and beaten. Leaders of the protest inside the square, where some had attempted to erect flimsy barricades ahead of the APCs, were said to have "implored" the students not to use weapons (such as Molotov cocktails) against the oncoming soldiers. Meanwhile, many students apparently were shouting, "Why are you killing us?" Around 4 or 5 am the following morning, 4 June, Cole reports to have seen tanks smashing into the square, crushing vehicles and people with their treads. By 5:40 am 4 June, the Square had been cleared.
At about 1:00 am, the army finally reached Tiananmen Square and waited for orders from the government. The soldiers had been told not to open fire, but they had also been told that they must clear the square by 6:00 am – with no exceptions or delays. They made a final offer of amnesty if the few thousand remaining students would leave. About 4:00 am, student leaders put the matter to a vote: Leave the square, or stay and face the consequences.
Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs) rolled up the roads, firing ahead and off to the sides, perhaps killing or wounding their own soldiers in the process. BBC reporter Kate Adie spoke of "indiscriminate fire" within the square. Eyewitness reporter Charlie Cole also saw Chinese soldiers firing Type 56 assault rifles into the crowd near an APC which had just been torched and its crew killed; many were killed and wounded that night.
Students who sought refuge in buses were pulled out by groups of soldiers and beaten with heavy sticks. Even students attempting to leave the square were beset by soldiers and beaten. Leaders of the protest inside the square, where some had attempted to erect flimsy barricades ahead of the APCs, were said to have "implored" the students not to use weapons (such as Molotov cocktails) against the oncoming soldiers. Meanwhile, many students apparently were shouting, "Why are you killing us?" Around 4 or 5 am the following morning, 4 June, Cole reports to have seen tanks smashing into the square, crushing vehicles and people with their treads. By 5:40 am 4 June, the Square had been cleared.
Do not be ignorant my friends. Ignorance, naivety can get protestors killed.
Protestors must be prepared. They must secure their defences. Protestors must ask the military to secure their defences. They must do this while there is still time.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Peter. It's not the russian revolution and there aren't any army officers around to liase with.
If things get to that stage I'm sure that the spanish won't be checking in here at Urban for your "ABC on revolution instruction booklet" so your advice on here is pointless.
Will be careful not to spit on the military if I see them though...
___________________________________________
Twitter has been down all morning. I hope that doesn't mean something's afoot.
If things get to that stage I'm sure that the spanish won't be checking in here at Urban for your "ABC on revolution instruction booklet" so your advice on here is pointless.
Will be careful not to spit on the military if I see them though...
___________________________________________
Twitter has been down all morning. I hope that doesn't mean something's afoot.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
Juventudes sin fututo are reporting that Plaza de Carmen in Granada has been/is being evicted...
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Correct. In this topic, we are discussing Spain.
However, we are looking at a potentially revolutionary situation in Spain now and it is certainly possible this could end in revolution, though it is not guaranteed if good advice like mine is ignored.
There are military internet forums.
I have been pursing republican revolution for many years so I have posted on several English language military forums in recent years.
http://www.militaryforums.co.uk/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=69556 56 posts
http://www.arrse.co.uk/member.php?u=6941 177 posts
I suggest anyone who wants a British, English, Welsh, Northern Irish or Scottish republican revolution makes similar efforts to make contact with the military and try to offer them political education and leadership.
I am doing the best I can but it is hard going so if other people support my efforts together we can do better in winning the military over to revolution.
Returning to the possibilities for revolution in Spain, Spanish revolutionaries can find Spanish military forums to make contacts with and liase with the military.
There is no point in me posting in Spanish military forums because I do not speak or write in Spanish and I do not think they would appreciate a Scot encouraging them to overthrow the Spanish King communicating to them using Google translate!
However, I do note that there seem to be some people claiming to be in Spain posting in such topics as this in English-speaking forums so my hope is that these English & Spanish speakers can benefit from my wisdom, educate themselves about revolutionary theory and apply their new knowledge themselves by approaching the Spanish military about how they can help the Spanish protestors.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Photo taken on the friday while the police attacked the camp in Barcelona
http://www.facebook.com/acampadasal...06392318&set=o.167238760003524&type=1&theater
http://www.facebook.com/acampadasal...06392318&set=o.167238760003524&type=1&theater
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Yes my dear, the Spanish protestors are a non-violent movement and the protestors in Barcelona acted with commendable restraint and did not allow themselves to be provoked into a fight with the police which they could not win.
However, republican revolutions only progress to a successful conclusion when protestors use the high moral ground they have achieved by demonstrating their peaceful democratic intentions to appeal for protection to those who are capable of defeating the fascist police state in a stand up fight if it comes to that - the military.
Ask the military to organise a defence force to deter and to defend against attacks by the police or from attacks by other elements in the military who might do the police's dirty work for them if the government asks the military.
Not to ask the military for protection is foolish because it surrenders the initiative to the politics of reaction, conservatism and counter-revolution whose leaders certainly are, right now, asking the police and military to crush the protests by force.
Absolutely do not wait until you are being beaten or shot by an officer thinking you can simply ask that attacking officer not to attack you. By then it is too late.
Before then you needed to be asking other officers, serving, veterans, his or her families, who will listen to you to provide a guard force to be there to protect you from those officers who won't listen to you and who will attack you if you are defenceless but who will be deterred from attacking you if you have a protection force in place first.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
anyway, yesterday after 4 hours of debate the assembly in Sol only managed to reach the conclusion that they were staying for now. But no consensus on when they were planning of leaving and what they were going to do afterwards.
For me, I'm definitely seeing some downsides on consensus decision making atm...
For me, I'm definitely seeing some downsides on consensus decision making atm...
The only winners are those who enjoy meetings.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
for me, the consensus model seems a little imposed, tbh. I mean, I think majority/show of hands functions, so long as everyone respects the decisions taken.
dennisr
the acceptable face
In Greece, since Wednesday 25 May the central squares in Athens and other Greek cities have been occupied by protesters.
A report here from participants (The interview was taken on Friday 27 May, two days after the occupation started. On Sunday 29 May one of the biggest mass mobilisations ever took place in Syntagma Square. At any time 50-70,000 were present, but the total number of people who passed from the square is estimated by Xekinima to be in the region of 200,000)
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5095
Unite the struggles and bring down the government
A report here from participants (The interview was taken on Friday 27 May, two days after the occupation started. On Sunday 29 May one of the biggest mass mobilisations ever took place in Syntagma Square. At any time 50-70,000 were present, but the total number of people who passed from the square is estimated by Xekinima to be in the region of 200,000)
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5095
Unite the struggles and bring down the government
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
What can the Spanish people do to get protection from the police attacks?
As I have posted previously, the Spanish protestors must approach the Spanish military, make contact with people in the military to ask for military protection for their protests.
There are many ways to approach the military, in military internet forums, by telephone, by arranging meetings, going to public events where the military are going to be, by contacting family members and old friends who are in the military; any way to make contact in a friendly way can be tried.
The protestors must go to the military with a very simple request - please protect us, save us, from attacks from any of those who want to arrest us, beat us or in any way force us off the streets and from public squares as the police in Catalonia did on May 27th.
Do not go to the military with a long list of political demands. This will not be understood. Ask only if the military will protect you from attack - that is more than enough and be very grateful for whatever they offer.
The military are used to helping the civilian population in many ways in emergencies and disasters and they know very well how to protect people from violent attacks.
What will be strange for the military is who is asking them to help - not the usual politicians they take orders from normally - uniquely this new protest movement is asking for help.
It will take much persuasion and pleading from many people on many occasions to persuade the military to help in any way. Any help they offer, accept it, even if it is not much, if it is something, it is a start.
Plead to the military that they are the only ones who can come to the defence of the people and their rights as citizens to protest.
Say, the honour of Spain is at stake. Spain must be a proud democracy to stand tall in the world, with our military proudly defending our democratic rights. The Catalan police shamed Spain by attacking protestors that day. This must not be repeated. A police state which can attack protestors and drive them off the streets will be bad for Spain.
Build a narrative for the military to believe in and to act on. Make it simple, make it believable, make it important, make it necessary and make it urgent.
Ask the military "to come to your protest camps, come in small numbers or in large numbers, to come to protect you from police attacks or just by being there deter any such attacks, come in uniform or come in plain clothes, come to have a meal with us, come to say hello using the loudspeakers, to say 'the 4th battalion of the rifle brigade is with you' or whatever or come to listen, come with your vehicles or come by public transport, come with your guns, or with no guns if you prefer, but come and come soon, come and stay and make us safe".
I am not in the military but I have joined some British military internet forums to try to gain support for my politics, and it is often not easy, often the soldiers' politics are hostile to my politics, often I am ridiculed but then again I was just one civilian, the Spanish protestors are tens and hundreds of thousands, they will be listened to, if they ask, but they must ask and they must ask now.
I don't say it will be easy to convince the military to protect the protestors but if many protestors contact the military they will take the requests for protection more seriously and hopefully they will come in time to stop more police attacks.
As I have posted previously, the Spanish protestors must approach the Spanish military, make contact with people in the military to ask for military protection for their protests.
There are many ways to approach the military, in military internet forums, by telephone, by arranging meetings, going to public events where the military are going to be, by contacting family members and old friends who are in the military; any way to make contact in a friendly way can be tried.
The protestors must go to the military with a very simple request - please protect us, save us, from attacks from any of those who want to arrest us, beat us or in any way force us off the streets and from public squares as the police in Catalonia did on May 27th.
Do not go to the military with a long list of political demands. This will not be understood. Ask only if the military will protect you from attack - that is more than enough and be very grateful for whatever they offer.
The military are used to helping the civilian population in many ways in emergencies and disasters and they know very well how to protect people from violent attacks.
What will be strange for the military is who is asking them to help - not the usual politicians they take orders from normally - uniquely this new protest movement is asking for help.
It will take much persuasion and pleading from many people on many occasions to persuade the military to help in any way. Any help they offer, accept it, even if it is not much, if it is something, it is a start.
Plead to the military that they are the only ones who can come to the defence of the people and their rights as citizens to protest.
Say, the honour of Spain is at stake. Spain must be a proud democracy to stand tall in the world, with our military proudly defending our democratic rights. The Catalan police shamed Spain by attacking protestors that day. This must not be repeated. A police state which can attack protestors and drive them off the streets will be bad for Spain.
Build a narrative for the military to believe in and to act on. Make it simple, make it believable, make it important, make it necessary and make it urgent.
Ask the military "to come to your protest camps, come in small numbers or in large numbers, to come to protect you from police attacks or just by being there deter any such attacks, come in uniform or come in plain clothes, come to have a meal with us, come to say hello using the loudspeakers, to say 'the 4th battalion of the rifle brigade is with you' or whatever or come to listen, come with your vehicles or come by public transport, come with your guns, or with no guns if you prefer, but come and come soon, come and stay and make us safe".
I am not in the military but I have joined some British military internet forums to try to gain support for my politics, and it is often not easy, often the soldiers' politics are hostile to my politics, often I am ridiculed but then again I was just one civilian, the Spanish protestors are tens and hundreds of thousands, they will be listened to, if they ask, but they must ask and they must ask now.
I don't say it will be easy to convince the military to protect the protestors but if many protestors contact the military they will take the requests for protection more seriously and hopefully they will come in time to stop more police attacks.
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