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Spain anti-politics protests

JHE said:
If there is a resurgence of republicanism among Spaniards, great! Roll on the Third Republic! But I've not seen anything to suggest that the question of the monarchy is any sort of priority among the protestors or the general public.



But he DID, FFS! I don't know how much you have ever done or expect to do in defence of democracy, but what Juan Carlos did in Feb 81 is rather more than most of us ever manage!

Because of his role in the transition and his role in thwarting the coup of 23F, Juan Carlos has quite a lot of respect, at least among people old enough to remember the period.
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Juan Carlos' role in 23F is overrated (and lots of Spanish people old enough to remember the period would tell yout the same).

As an aside people with Republican flags (or any other flags) at the camp were told to put them away, as the idea was to try and undermine the old "two spains" narrative, and not relive the same old fights. Obviously the PP wanted it to go the other way.

Well, Lletsa asked how can the protesters expect to achieve any of their goals? Well, taking into account turnout, the two main parties persuaded about 38% of the electorate to vote for them. Despite the PSOE being wiped out, the rise in the PP's vote was pretty negligible (in fact it went down in their strongholds - Valencia and Madrid). I think the active support of the political class, as a whole, IS dropping.

If, IF, the movement can continue to push effectively the idea that both parties constitute, together, essentially one force, there's a possibility that when the PP do win the presidency (and its evident that it's a done deal now), when they become unpopular (and I think Rajoy will be the most unpopular politician in Spanish history within 12 months) it might not turn into, "quick get the other lot back". That is, they might be able to create a real space for discussing an economic alternative to the turning the country over to the banks. Of course, it's not impossible that Spain will default at some point, at which point laying down this marker beforehand is well worth doing.
 
Lo Siento. said:
As an aside people with Republican flags (or any other flags) at the camp were told to put them away, as the idea was to try and undermine the old "two spains" narrative, and not relive the same old fights.
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Well you can't have a real democracy without allowing freedom of expression and so denying the freedom to express your partisan loyalty by flying your flag is an undemocratic blemish on an otherwise beautiful assertion of democratic principles.

If the constitution of the new Spanish revolutionary protests includes a "no flags" rule then the protestors themselves will eventually think it time for an amendment to their own constitution.

On the other hand if you allow flags, do you also allow flag-burning? If some protestors burn the current Spanish state flag then this may be like a red-rag to a bull to the Spanish state. I agree that the last thing the demonstrations need is to provoke a crack-down on them by the state.

Therefore banning flag-burning may a better rule than banning all flags.

Admittedly, the very old political communication technology of flag flying has been largely superceded by new communications technology and so long as the Spanish internet and mobile phone networks are freely available then you can manage without flags for a while no problem.

Democracy vs fascism, or real democracy vs real fascism is an old fight and it looks to me like the Spanish protestors have entered that old fight on the side of democracy which is excellent news. :)

However, the old forces of fascism are always lurking out there somewhere.

The Spanish state officials, police, lawyers and military are hopefully tuned into new social media, understanding that the protestors have many good points to make and who would refuse any order to suppress the protests by clearing the streets, rounding up ringleaders, Franco or Gaddafi style.

However, there will be elements in the Spanish state who care nothing for new media, who don't like these protests, who see the protestors as a threat to their rule and who could respond to an old technology appeal of flags, generals, government ministers and judges, to order a backlash and a clampdown against these protests.

Hopefully it won't come to that but it is fair to point out that a fascist police or military put-down of the protests cannot be defended against by the demonstrators simply imposing upon themselves a "no flags" rule.

The demonstrators can say "hey don't arrest me, don't shoot me, I am not carrying a flag, I am peaceful" but this is no guarantee that they won't be arrested or shot.

Well so far so good but history tells us that such seemingly promising democratic movements can be crushed by a fascist state put-down.

What democrats the world over want to avoid is the old outcome of the Spanish Civil War which was a defeat for democracy.

You don't avoid losing an old fight by denying that you are in it.
 
LLETSA said:
To be able to see a problem without pretending to have a solution doesn't mean that saying so can't be part of the debate. Sometimes you come close to saying that unless you purport to have answers, you should keep your mouth shut. And you're far from the only one on here.
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To be able to see a problem in the context you are speaking about is really a case of "stating the bloody obvious". You are saying nothing new if all you have to offer is the same poo-pooing you always come out with. Of course, you can say whatever you like - and if this all you have to say then you have to accept that others will take you up on your own inconsistancy. Like you I want possible solutions - so do those demonstrators - they are eager for possible solutions. Fair enough no?

PSOE is fecked, in the Basque country, the newly legalised Bildu nationalist party made huge gains. All these results are a likely prelude to a PP victory in 2012. So workers and youth can expect an even more brutal axe-wielding government. In the context of this ongoing (even if inchoherant...) movement - and the previous trade union strikes - this would, in a way, represent the "whip of counterrevolution". It is likely to led to the class struggle developing to a new pitch.

Broad layers of these youth have a deep hatred of 'the system'. Broad layers identify with a fight against capitalism as a system. The developing mood among older workers - reflected in the sympathy that already exists for these demonstrators - can be developed. Demands such as the need for a general strike (which can show who really holds the power in society) becomes clearer.

Of course, the present moods and opinions must be given clarity and fought for as a political programme. But the latent power of the working class still exists - regardless of how effective it is at this moment.

Among the youth there is a determination to sit out until the whole thing collapses - take that level of opposition and apply it to a general strike situation when those who make the wealth cross their arms and reuse to do anymore.
 
dennisr said:
To be able to see a problem in the context you are speaking about is really a case of "stating the bloody obvious". You are saying nothing new if all you have to offer is the same poo-pooing you always come out with. Of course, you can say whatever you like - and if this all you have to say then you have to accept that others will take you up on your own inconsistancy. Like you I want possible solutions - so do those demonstrators - they are eager for possible solutions. Fair enough no?

PSOE is fecked, in the Basque country, the newly legalised Bildu nationalist party made huge gains. All these results are a likely prelude to a PP victory in 2012. So workers and youth can expect an even more brutal axe-wielding government. In the context of this ongoing (even if inchoherant...) movement - and the previous trade union strikes - this would, in a way, represent the "whip of counterrevolution". It is likely to led to the class struggle developing to a new pitch.

Broad layers of these youth have a deep hatred of 'the system'. Broad layers identify with a fight against capitalism as a system. The developing mood among older workers - reflected in the sympathy that already exists for these demonstrators - can be developed. Demands such as the need for a general strike (which can show who really holds the power in society) becomes clearer.

Of course, the present moods and opinions must be given clarity and fought for as a political programme. But the latent power of the working class still exists - regardless of how effective it is at this moment.

Among the youth there is a determination to sit out until the whole thing collapses - take that level of opposition and apply it to a general strike situation when those who make the wealth cross their arms and reuse to do anymore.
Click to expand...



On a board where virtually everybody repeats the same few things over and over, why is it always me who gets accused of repetition? And in the same breath you accuse me of inconsistency. And why is pointing to obvious flaws in the thinking behind all this dismissed as mere poo-pooing? I'd have thought that in a lifetime of enthusing over a certain political development only to be left disappointed and scratching your head not long after, a lot of people on here would have learned to be a bit more sceptical. To be sceptical is not to doubt the sincerity and commitmen of those involved in the protests.

I can no longer buy this idea that 'brutal axe-wielding governments' cause 'class struggle to develop to a new pitch.' After all, we had such a government in the UK throughout the 1980s and most of the nineties and class struggle, despite a few highpoints, declined dramatically, undermined as it was by the social atomisation that that government's policies created. I see nothing to indicate that anything radically different is happening now. What we are actually seeing is mostly a re-run of what happened back then (despite sometimes vast numbers turning out for demos-as they did then) in less favourable circumstances. Yet after the relative lull of the New Labour years, this routine activity being talked up as anything from a (never defined) 'new politics' to a prelude to revolution.
 
LLETSA said:
On a board where virtually everybody repeats the same few things over and over, why is it always me who gets accused of repetition? And in the same breath you accuse me of inconsistency. And why is pointing to obvious flaws in the thinking behind all this dismissed as mere poo-pooing? I'd have thought that in a lifetime of enthusing over a certain political development only to be left disappointed and scratching your head not long after, a lot of people on here would have learned to be a bit more sceptical. To be sceptical is not to doubt the sincerity and commitmen of those involved in the protests.

I can no longer buy this idea that 'brutal axe-wielding governments' cause 'class struggle to develop to a new pitch.' After all, we had such a government in the UK throughout the 1980s and most of the nineties and class struggle, despite a few highpoints, declined dramatically, undermined as it was by the social atomisation that that government's policies created. I see nothing to indicate that anything radically different is happening now. What we are actually seeing is mostly a re-run of what happened back then (despite sometimes vast numbers turning out for demos-as they did then) in less favourable circumstances. Yet after the relative lull of the New Labour years, this routine activity being talked up as anything from a (never defined) 'new politics' to a prelude to revolution.
Click to expand...

How can it not be radically different? In the 1970s and 1980s for the most part resistance to neoliberalism was articulated through traditional channels - the trade unions and the labour party - over the role in society of traditional combatants (for the previous century anywhere): male manual workers. In 2011, the former two structures don't exist, at least not as a way of channeling social discontent, and the social groups mobilised, where they still exist, largely aren't the ones losing out in the current recession.

So, whatever these social groups do and whatever forms they take have to be radically distinct by definition.
 
Lo Siento. said:
Well, Lletsa asked how can the protesters expect to achieve any of their goals? Well, taking into account turnout, the two main parties persuaded about 38% of the electorate to vote for them. Despite the PSOE being wiped out, the rise in the PP's vote was pretty negligible (in fact it went down in their strongholds - Valencia and Madrid). I think the active support of the political class, as a whole, IS dropping.

If, IF, the movement can continue to push effectively the idea that both parties constitute, together, essentially one force, there's a possibility that when the PP do win the presidency (and its evident that it's a done deal now), when they become unpopular (and I think Rajoy will be the most unpopular politician in Spanish history within 12 months) it might not turn into, "quick get the other lot back". That is, they might be able to create a real space for discussing an economic alternative to the turning the country over to the banks. Of course, it's not impossible that Spain will default at some point, at which point laying down this marker beforehand is well worth doing.
Click to expand...


All we can do is wait and see. But I'm still not convinced that a majority of the abstainers have a deep dissatisfaction with the present system (although lots clearly do), as opposed to being largely satisfied with their lot and uninterested in politics, or simply apathetic. Nor should we assume that most of those who are dissatisfied will necessarily look leftwards for solutions.

And the questions remain: who would implement the economic alternative? How would they be able to stand up to internal and external opposition, often from forces more powerful than any single government?
 
Lo Siento. said:
How can it not be radically different? In the 1970s and 1980s for the most part resistance to neoliberalism was articulated through traditional channels - the trade unions and the labour party - over the role in society of traditional combatants (for the previous century anywhere): male manual workers. In 2011, the former two structures don't exist, at least not as a way of channeling social discontent, and the social groups mobilised, where they still exist, largely aren't the ones losing out in the current recession.

So, whatever these social groups do and whatever forms they take have to be radically distinct by definition.
Click to expand...



If the old structures no longer channel discontent, all we can say is that the new channels are decidedly weaker and, obviously, temporary. The older institutions had the distinct advantage of being able to claim to be part of an alternative government that could feasibly (even if they rarely did anything that radical) form an alternative government committed to a different way of doing things.
 
LLETSA said:
All we can do is wait and see. But I'm still not convinced that a majority of the abstainers have a deep dissatisfaction with the present system (although lots clearly do), as opposed to being largely satisfied with their lot and uninterested in politics, or simply apathetic. Nor should we assume that most of those who are dissatisfied will necessarily look leftwards for solutions.

And the questions remain: who would implement the economic alternative? How would they be able to stand up to internal and external opposition, often from forces more powerful than any single government?
Click to expand...

Given the current social situation in Spain I don't see a lot of satisfied people to be honest - we're talking almost half the young people unemployed, more than a 5th of the population as a whole. The quality of jobs that people in work are getting is visible declining, and the cost of living is steadily rising. To an extent it doesn't really matter if the abstainers are dissatisfied or disinterested, the above situations have to resolve themselves or they will produce discontent. The extent to which people identify (or not) with parts of the political elite is going to a determining factor in what form that discontent takes.

I don't have answers to your other two questions. No organisation currently in existence is fit for that purpose. We'll have to make one.
 
LLETSA said:
If the old structures no longer channel discontent, all we can say is that the new channels are decidedly weaker and, obviously, temporary. The older institutions had the distinct advantage of being able to claim to be part of an alternative government that could feasibly (even if they rarely did anything that radical) form an alternative government committed to a different way of doing things.
Click to expand...

Whatever the advantages the old structures had, they're gone now, and the sooner we wave goodbye to them the faster we move on to the task of creating new ones.
 
LLETSA said:
Clearly it isn't going to be so simple.
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over the medium to long term it will be. I don't see the opposition between the old centre-left parties and the old centre-right parties lasting my lifetime, in some countries I don't see it lasting out the decade, tbh.
 
Lo Siento. said:
over the medium to long term it will be. I don't see the opposition between the old centre-left parties and the old centre-right parties lasting my lifetime, in some countries I don't see it lasting out the decade, tbh.
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What do you see?
 
LLETSA said:
What do you see?
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It's more what I don't see. I don't see anything meaningful to attach social groups to those parties. Just like the old Liberal Party as their constituency ceases to exist so will they. If you don't believe me take a look at the 2009 european parliament results and the truly piss poor results of centre left continent wide (given a slight bump by the respectable result achieved by PASOK in Greece and the PSOE in Spain).
 
Lo Siento. said:
It's more what I don't see. I don't see anything meaningful to attach social groups to those parties. Just like the old Liberal Party as their constituency ceases to exist so will they. If you don't believe me take a look at the 2009 european parliament results and the truly piss poor results of centre left continent wide (given a slight bump by the respectable result achieved by PASOK in Greece and the PSOE in Spain).
Click to expand...



You may be right. But I'm far from convinced that their disintegration will necessarily boost left/working class politics. Under current circumstances it could push millions into the arms of populist demagogues (some of them posturing as left wingers) and gimmick candidates, with the centre-right looking like the sensible option.
 
LLETSA said:
You may be right. But I'm far from convinced that their disintegration will necessarily boost left/working class politics. Under current circumstances it could push millions into the arms of populist demagogues (some of them posturing as left wingers) and gimmick candidates, with the centre-right looking like the sensible option.
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whether or not that's the case, it's the situation people should be preparing for. It's something that left/working class politics could get a boost from...
 
LLETSA said:
I can no longer buy this idea that 'brutal axe-wielding governments' cause 'class struggle to develop to a new pitch.'
Click to expand...

I've never bought into it. BUT - as I qualified - there is a already an opposition looking for a way to oppose (and, yes, of course it can all go tits up - lack of a 'subjective factor' and all that.. :)
 
...as there is in Greece - we now have thousands gathering in Athens - following the Spanish example:

http://www.star.gr/ELLADA_KOSMOS/93174

The other main group of emulators is in Italy - where it ties in with a major dispute that has just broken with shipyard workers facing mass redundancies:

http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/5085

(which also provides its own example of the populist demagogue danger - with the vice-president of Fincantieri, Belsito, is a leader of the Northern League expressing "solidarity with the workers”.
Everyone is defending their own electoral base and everyone is against everyone.)
 
One Struggle!

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loQdJsfR90c&feature=player_embedded#at=145[/video]
 
300559476.jpg
 
Plaza Catalunya in Barcelona was evicted this morning - "To clean the square in preparation for the champions league final on sat & to prevent clashes between rampaging barca fans & the protesters", according to a friend of mine who lives there.
 
Blagsta said:
Plaza Catalunya in Barcelona was evicted this morning - "To clean the square in preparation for the champions league final on sat & to prevent clashes between rampaging barca fans & the protesters", according to a friend of mine who lives there.
Click to expand...

I suspect that it's just that CiU have a freer hand with the Mossos (regional police) than the PP regional government does in Madrid. There's been a drip-drip since the elections of "the camp is disrupting trade" for a few days now. Traders in Puerta de Sol were apparently going to call a demo or something. Of course I'm betting the hospitality sector did very nicely out of last week, money they'll presumably give back now they're against the camps ...

(in any case, I think stategically keeping the camps going after the elections was a mistake - people inevitably have drifted away, and I think the message has lost a lot of force because of it. Especially since the remaining protesters are almost exactly "just the crusties/perroflautas" image that they were originally trying to avoid...)
 
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