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Spain anti-politics protests

JHE said:
I expect their Palestinian section, Hamas, is pretty much like a bunch of tolerant peaceful Quakers who just happen to pray a little differently.
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do you think any of the "christian democrat" parties in europe are that then?
 
frogwoman said:
do you think any of the "christian democrat" parties in europe are that then?
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There is no Christian Democrat equivalent to Sharia. There is no Christian Democrat equivalent to dhimmitude. To pretend that Christian Democracy (a centre right European movement) is like Islamism (a hatefully reactionary movement which, incidentally, would kill both you and me) is daft.
 
MellySingsDoom said:
Spain bravely upholding democracy by, er, effectively banning the protests pre-Sunday's election: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/20/spain-bans-protest-ahead-election

Someone should point out to the authorites that protesting about austerity cuts and unemployment is not electioneering. Not too sure about the "socialist" government wanting to wave the big stick so close to the election though - can't imagine pictures of Espana Plod wading into the protestors being a vote-winner.
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the likely presidential candidate Rubalcaba seems pretty hesitant, he's more or less said, that if there's shitloads of people there, it'll be too difficult to uphold the decision, if not, we'll probably kick them off. Trouble is, if they kick them off in the early hours of saturday (what I expect) we'll all be back saturday afternoon :D
 
Random said:
Poli

Politicians rarely stick to radical manifesto pledges, as labour voters over here know too well.
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It's nothing like Labour getting elected and you know it.

The only example I can think of Islamists in government not implementing Sharia is Turkey. I am sure you are aware that in Turkey, the Islamists have had to moderate their programme (or at least pace) in order to avoid falling foul of the Ataturkian constitution and armed forces. I doubt that authoritarian secularist constraint will last another generation there. Why would it?

Better comparisons: Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, northern states in Nigeria, Somalia... and of course there are the old Royal fuddy duddies of Islamism in Saudi Arabia, who are likely only to be overthrown by people who are even worse.
 
JHE said:
Yes, it's certainly going to be interesting to see what happens. It is not the government, but the Central Electoral Council (JEC), which has said the demonstrations will not be allowed on the 'day of reflection' (ie the day before the elections). As far as I know, all demonstrations and all campaigning are always banned on 'the day of reflection'. Hopefully, the JEC or someone else can find a way around this. Some in the protest movement have promised passive resistance. If Señor Plod had to remove many people offering passive resistance, he might get quite heavy and I'm not sure the resistance would then remain passive.
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When I was there. Everyone was chanting pacifist slogans, and they seem pretty determined to (a)keep their distance from any party or organisation and (b)not be provoked. Trouble is we live in a era of doublethink where the news cheerfully shows picture of someone being battered with a stick by a policeman and calls it a riot with a straight face.
 
JHE said:
The only example I can think of Islamists in government not implementing Sharia is Turkey. I am sure you are aware that in Turkey, the Islamists have had to moderate their programme (or at least pace) in order to avoid falling foul of the Ataturkian constitution and armed forces. I doubt that authoritarian secularist constraint will last another generation there. Why would it?
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From what I know of the Egypt situation the parallel with Turkey seems a lot closer than one with Iran. In Egypt the secular nationalist army are also in the driving seat, with at least as much popular support as in the Kemalist Entity..
 
Random said:
From what I know of the Egypt situation the parallel with Turkey seems a lot closer than one with Iran. In Egypt the secular nationalist army are also in the driving seat, with at least as much popular support as in the Kemalist Entity..
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So... you think that, though the MB will probably be the dominant party, their programme will be held in check, at least temporarily, as in Turkey, by a bunch of nationalist generals. Oh, the joys of the coming Egyptian 'democracy'! Theocracy tempered by military dictatorship!

(Spain, thank goodness, is a very different kettle of fish. It has managed to push its nationalist generals out of politics without running any risk of returning to medieval tyranny of any sort.)
 
Cheeky, but at £4, I can think of worse contributions to capitalist global economy tbh...

Will see if there's a free ebook version of it though, fo sho.
 
19th C left have been curiously absent, tbh - even the anarchos who you'd expect to be all over this. There might be a lot of them involved, but I've not seen a flag, a left mag or newspaper, nothing ... Izquierda Unida have been saying that they're on our side, but keeping a respectable distance. Mainstream politicos telling us we've got a point, perhaps they'll listen.

I certainly don't think the PP are revelling in it either. Yeah, the PP hardcore are just going to call them perroflautas (dog-on-a-string is "dogs and recorders"), link them to ETA and all the rest. But the PP lost the last election, and they can't win with just the core vote. They don't need loads of young unemployed people on the street talking about them both being the same, to vote for anyone else at all, asking for popular policies they're totally against. Especially when their campaign basically consists of shouting "5m unemployed" at everybody. The government's so unpopular, that they were going to win regardless, this actually puts at least the margin of victory in doubt, if all the swing voters or the people who are sick of Zapatero do something else.

One of the noticeable things about this campaign is that (a) lots of people who don't normally do anything are talking about it and doing something and (b) that everyone is talking about it. That's gonna affect both main parties IMO

(also the PP are clearly bricking it, they keep slagging it off and telling lies about it)
 
Lo Siento. said:
19th C left have been curiously absent, tbh - even the anarchos who you'd expect to be all over this. There might be a lot of them involved, but I've not seen a flag, a left mag or newspaper, nothing ... Izquierda Unida have been saying that they're on our side, but keeping a respectable distance. Mainstream politicos telling us we've got a point, perhaps they'll listen.

I certainly don't think the PP are revelling in it either. Yeah, the PP hardcore are just going to call them perroflautas (dog-on-a-string is "dogs and recorders"), link them to ETA and all the rest. But the PP lost the last election, and they can't win with just the core vote. They don't need loads of young unemployed people on the street talking about them both being the same, to vote for anyone else at all, asking for popular policies they're totally against. Especially when their campaign basically consists of shouting "5m unemployed" at everybody. The government's so unpopular, that they were going to win regardless, this actually puts at least the margin of victory in doubt, if all the swing voters or the people who are sick of Zapatero do something else.

One of the noticeable things about this campaign is that (a) lots of people who don't normally do anything are talking about it and doing something and (b) that everyone is talking about it. That's gonna affect both main parties IMO

(also the PP are clearly bricking it, they keep slagging it off and telling lies about it)
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Dear oh dear! PP 'bricking it'? Come off it! What have you been smoking? PP are confident that their voters will turn out and vote and, unfortunately, I see no reason to think they are wrong about that.
 
JHE said:
Dear oh dear! PP 'bricking it'? Come off it! What have you been smoking? PP are confident that their voters will turn out and vote and, unfortunately, I see no reason to think they are wrong about that.
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I can assure, actually being here, reading the newspaper, watching the tv, speaking to PP supporters, that they are. So you're talking shit.
 
With the wonders of the internet, many Spanish media are available even in Nottingham!

We'll see soon enough how PP do and I'm sorry to say we can expect to see Rajoy and his chums celebrating.
 
JHE said:
With the wonders of the internet, many Spanish media are available even in Nottingham!

We'll see soon enough how PP do and I'm sorry to say we can expect to see Rajoy and his chums celebrating.
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they were going to win by a landslide regardless.

And whatever you're getting of the spanish media, it's unlikely you're watching Intereconomia or Veo7 and seeing what the right in general and the PP are actually saying about the protest. In fact they're the most vocal in wanting to ban it. They're desperately trying to spin the camp as being pro-PSOE, or pro-IU or just perroflautas or linked to ETA. Anything to avoid acknowledging that the vast majority of participants see both ruling parties as identical, identically servile to big financial interests.

It's unlikely you're talking to the participants or people in everyday life and what they're saying about it - people who hadn't previously expressed any political view at all to me and telling me they've been down to the protests, that they're inspired and they're going to vote anyone but ppsoe.

IMO at least 40% of the population have no identification with the major parties at all. Before they would have just ignored the elections. Now? Who knows?

Beyond doubt that the PSOE will get a kicking, but it's far from certain that the PP are going to increase their share of the vote.
 
Additionally, the PP was guaranteed to win this election, and they've got their eyes on the general elections that are coming. What they want is a nice quiet, big victory, show up the government and have a regulation election win in the general. It doesn't suit them at all to have all these people mobilised, all these people talking about actual policies rather than just hating ZP, upheavel doesn't suit them when they'rer coasting to the presidency and their leader has incredibly low approval ratings.
 
I was in Plaza Catalunya in Barcelona during the day yesterday and there was a real buzz there. spontaneous debates all over the shop and 3 areas for "official" speakers. It's well organized with a soup kitchen and portaloos. It's not just young people.

Many people of all ages are attending and bring food and supplies to show solidarity.

Last night at 12 was the deadline for legality. The electoral commission declared against the gatherings due to the day of reflection before people go to the polls in the council elections. There was expectation that the police would move in to break up the protest. However, tens of thousands of people crammed into the square last night in defiance and a massvie cheer went up at 12. In Madrid the protest was even bigger and resembled the new years celebration but political. There were gatherings in about 57 more cities.

After 12 they set about confirming the list of demands with the crowds shouting their approval or not and crossing their arms if they disapproved.

There are many calling for people not to abstain in the elections but to vote for small parties.

There is definitely a change in confidence here. People have been complaining for years in a fatalistic way but now they have found a way to focus their anger. people I know who never go on demos are fired up to go the square.

The political class here stinks and the stench has got up people's noses enough for them to get out on the street and do something about it. More and more people are being drawn in.
 
I actually think the right have been caught out here and shot themselves in the foot in regards to these protests. Over the last few years with the introduction of digital TV lots of hard right channels have been popping up such as intereconomía, Veo7, Libertad digital etc. Usually they try and present themselves as serious and down to earth much like the BNP are doing here.

But they seem to have taken the absurd position that the anti government protests are being directed by the government especially Rubalcaba who is the home affairs minister, with an alliance of communists and crusties

The irony being is and something what has surprised me is the numbers and types of people that have been involved in the protests. Many folk who I know who are normally apolitical have been involved so it´s been an eye opener for them to be called pro-ETA, anti system, crusties and whatever else.

All the hard right need to add to appear more ridiculous is say it´s the work of the Jews, masons and I suppose the can fit in Garzón also.
 
Lo Siento. said:
they were going to win by a landslide regardless.

And whatever you're getting of the spanish media, it's unlikely you're watching Intereconomia or Veo7 and seeing what the right in general and the PP are actually saying about the protest. In fact they're the most vocal in wanting to ban it. They're desperately trying to spin the camp as being pro-PSOE, or pro-IU or just perroflautas or linked to ETA. Anything to avoid acknowledging that the vast majority of participants see both ruling parties as identical, identically servile to big financial interests.

It's unlikely you're talking to the participants or people in everyday life and what they're saying about it - people who hadn't previously expressed any political view at all to me and telling me they've been down to the protests, that they're inspired and they're going to vote anyone but ppsoe.

IMO at least 40% of the population have no identification with the major parties at all. Before they would have just ignored the elections. Now? Who knows?

Beyond doubt that the PSOE will get a kicking, but it's far from certain that the PP are going to increase their share of the vote.
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I'd like to reply to many parts of that and might reply to more tonight, but before I go out I just want to say:

1. The things you quote PPers as saying (which, you are right, I haven't heard or read) are very interesting. They do not seem to me to indicate fear (let alone great fear: 'bricking it'), but antipathy and contempt. Though I didn't know of the reaction, it does not surprise me much. The protest movement is plainly a left-wing movement, though the protesters may not want that label. Large left-wing movements are going to get up the noses of right-wingers.

2. Along with the antipathy and contempt, there is a definite strand of utter bonkersness and I think there may be a pattern here. It reminds me of the PP and El Mundo twaddle about 11-M being the work of ETA. There was, of course, a very large element of dishonesty involved and was at first an attempt (futile and counter-productive, as it turned out) to get electoral advantage from the atrocities, but it went on and on afterwards. El Mundo was pushing the drivel at least as late as 2007. I'm not sure quite how to explain this bonkersness on the Spanish right, but I suppose part of the explanation may simply be that when they see something they hate, and their blood pressure rises, they can't help thinking also of what they usually hate, Communists and Basque bombers. It's always tempting to lump together the things that you hate.

3. You say PP are going to win on Sunday. I say PP are going to win. Neither of us is Mystic Meg. We read the polls. You can bet that PP pols read the polls. There is always the possibility of an electoral upset (as in 2004), but PP have pretty good reason to expect to win and, unless the situation changes massively in the coming months, Rajoy can still expect to become prime minister next year.
 
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