Spain anti-politics protests

[Anudder Oik]

But they seem to have taken the absurd position that the anti government protests are being directed by the government especially Rubalcaba who is the home affairs minister, with an alliance of communists and crusties

On intereconomia today the Berlusconi lookalike presenter actually said the protests were against the government. ie, PSOE and not all the main parties. Still ridiculous though.

The good thing about these protests is that the left is being joined by layers of normally apathetic or pessimistic people, call them the sleeping left if you like, The atmosphere is contagious as people come out of their slumber and feel fresh again.

 

[sunny jim]

On intereconomia today the Berlusconi lookalike presenter actually said the protests were against the government. ie, PSOE and not all the main parties. Still ridiculous though.

The good thing about these protests is that the left is being joined by layers of normally apathetic or pessimistic people, call them the sleeping left if you like, The atmosphere is contagious as people come out of their slumber and feel fresh again.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

another good site with recent vids etc: http://www.thetechnoant.info/

 

[albionism]

"25,000 protesters" ! Yeah right. Just look at the size of that crowd.

[video]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13482657[/video]

 

[Peter Dow]

Support the Spanish demos. Las Palabras De Amor!

There's a Spanish President in there somewhere!

BBC: Spanish polls to open amid mass protests


Click for large image
The protest in Madrid's Puerta del Sol square has remained peaceful

Spain is poised to begin voting in regional elections as thousands of young protesters remain camped out in squares across the country.

Demonstrators are angry at the government's economic policies and Spain's high youth unemployment rate.

Their numbers have swelled despite a ban on political protests ahead of elections.

The governing Socialists are expected to suffer major losses in voting for city councils and regional governments.

Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's government is struggling to overcome recession and create jobs.

In the capital Madrid, about 30,000 people have occupied the central Puerta del Sol square.

Similar protests, popularly known as M-15, have sprung up in many other cities including Barcelona, Valencia, Seville and Bilbao.

My solidarity, my best wishes and my love to the Spanish demonstrators.

 

[Anudder Oik]

There is a solidarity demonstration planned this afternoon at 5 (GMT+1) in front of the spanish embassy in Cairo...

 

[Fedayn]

Some images from the protest

 

[audiotech]

It's nothing like Labour getting elected and you know it.

The only example I can think of Islamists in government not implementing Sharia is Turkey. I am sure you are aware that in Turkey, the Islamists have had to moderate their programme (or at least pace) in order to avoid falling foul of the Ataturkian constitution and armed forces.

I seem to remember reading that the Islamists were being jailed, tortured, shot and hacked to death by the Turkish armed forces and paramilitary's in a brutal crackdown?

 

[JHE]

The election results are starting to come in.

An interesting snippet of news: Bildu, the new (post-ETA) vehicle for rad Basque nationalism that narrowly got permission to take part in elections from the Constitutional Tribunal, has done very well. Apparently, they have more votes than any other party in Guipúzcoa, got more than PP or PSOE in Vizcaya and have also done well in the other province of the Basque Country, Álava.

 

[Fedayn]

Hundreds, overwhelmingly Spanish, marched in Edinburgh this evening in Solidarity with the demonstration in Madrid.

 

[JHE]

On Canal 24h, I've just watched a very large crowd of PPers waving flags and celebrating their party's victories. The incongruous thing was that the music they had on was 'YMCA' by the Village People. Are we seeing a new gay-friendly PP? No, I don't suppose so.

 

[Peter Dow]

Hundreds, overwhelmingly Spanish, marched in Edinburgh this evening in Solidarity with the demonstration in Madrid.

This is not the first occasion of Scottish / Spanish solidarity in the cause of democracy.

Many years ago, Scottish volunteers serving with the International Brigade fought on the side of the Spanish republic which was under attack from the fascist General Franco.


The Flag of the Spanish Republic - (For Freedom Forums Avatar Gallery)

International Brigade veterans Bob Doyle, Jack Edwards and Jack Jones with the banner of the British Battalion of the International Brigade, at the unveiling of a monument in Belfast on 12 October 2007, dedicated to the Irish volunteers who served with the XV International Brigade.


The Scots Who Fought Franco, 1936-1938 (The Scottish National Standard Bearer website)



The Scots who fought Franco - Hosted on YouTube as a 10-video playlist (94 minutes).

Video: "The Scots Who Fought Franco" was broadcast on Scottish Television, STV on 13th & 20th August 2009.

A poignant and compelling look at the extraordinary role Scots played in the Spanish Civil War. Through previously unseen archive interviews, those who were there tell their stories of idealism, hope and horror. Their incredible contribution is charted through interviews with experts and relatives, and footage of Spanish battlefields - as they were then, and now.

"Though they could not defeat Franco, the Scots who went to Spain had squared up to fascism before the rest of the world got around to it. Scotland can be proud of them."​

I am very proud to fly the Scottish national standard, the Lion Rampant, in solidarity with the Spanish demonstrators in Edinburgh.

The people of Scotland stand up to be counted with the people of Spain!

¡Democracia Real Ya!
(Real Democracy Now!)

 

[LLETSA]

On intereconomia today the Berlusconi lookalike presenter actually said the protests were against the government. ie, PSOE and not all the main parties. Still ridiculous though.

The good thing about these protests is that the left is being joined by layers of normally apathetic or pessimistic people, call them the sleeping left if you like, The atmosphere is contagious as people come out of their slumber and feel fresh again.

But where can it go politically?

In what way could the protestors' 'demands' ever be implemented?

 

[dennisr]

Hundreds, overwhelmingly Spanish, marched in Edinburgh this evening in Solidarity with the demonstration in Madrid.

Brilliant stuff Fed - thanks for pics

 

[Anudder Oik]

But where can it go politically?

In what way could the protestors' 'demands' ever be implemented?

On saturday I was in a small town outside Barcelona and every speaker in the square talked about the need for a general strike and organizing on a local level. The unions do F all but this movement is going ahead without them. It's a groundswell. The battle at the moment is to get the pessimists out onto the street and that is happening. Somehow I don't think things are going to be the same anymore.

The election results have placed the centre right in power. This should help galvanize the movement.

In the council elections abstention was 33% on a national level. That's 12 million people. Almost 1 million votes were spoiled or white (protest votes).

 

[JHE]

The unions do F all but this movement is going ahead without them.

It was reported that unions offered help of some sort, but the protesters voted to turn down the offer, preferring to maintain their independence from all unions as well as from all political parties.

BTW, I wouldn't call a general strike last September "F all", though I'd agree it was ineffectual.

 

[LLETSA]

On saturday I was in a small town outside Barcelona and every speaker in the square talked about the need for a general strike and organizing on a local level. The unions do F all but this movement is going ahead without them. It's a groundswell. The battle at the moment is to get the pessimists out onto the street and that is happening. Somehow I don't think things are going to be the same anymore.

The election results have placed the centre right in power. This should help galvanize the movement.

In the council elections abstention was 33% on a national level. That's 12 million people. Almost 1 million votes were spoiled or white (protest votes).

Why, though, should we presume most or even a large percentage of the abstainers support what the protestors are demanding? Abstaining doesn't always signify a desire for anything other than what exists at present. Sometimes it can signal simple apathy or staisfaction with the status quo.

And even if there were to be a general strike, in a situation where the electorate has just delivered big gains for the centre right, how would it result in the demands of the protestors being implemented?

 

[Anudder Oik]

Why, though, should we presume most or even a large percentage of the abstainers support what the protestors are demanding? Abstaining doesn't always signify a desire for anything other than what exists at present. Sometimes it can signal simple apathy or staisfaction with the status quo.

I think the majority of people who abstain are fed up with the system. It is a problem that plagues the left becuase they are too sensitive. The right never abstains but I hear left wing people complaining all the time. They become demoralized and think, fuck it.

Of course a percentage of abstainers will be just daft people but I wouldn't say any were happy with the status quo.

Unfortunately the small radical anti cuts parties didn't fare as well as I hoped but they didn't do too bad for their first time. I am in Catalonia and a radical left assembly called CUP got 65,000 votes. They got 110 councillors. In a large town 5 kilometres from where I live there is now an anarcho sindicalist councillor who has vowed to provide an opposition never seen before and make sure everything the council does is transparent.


____________________

Added; I just popped out to take out the rubbish and passed by the local town hall for a bit afterwards. There were about 250 people at the camp with people taking turns on the mike. Tomorrow they're leafleting the town and the manifesto/list of demands is all but drawn up. They talked about keeping up the momentum. It's early days yet for this movement and even if after a week the camps pack up, they will be back at the drop of a hat. I think in Spain we are in for quite a struggle as the cuts bite more savagely.

Some pics from Madrid.

http://m.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/05/a-defiant-spanish-revolution/100070/

Latest postcard from Barcelona

http://yfrog.com/gyekq2j

 

[embree]

According to Bristol Indymedia there's a camp on Bristol city centre who intend to stay there for a week. Not seen it myself so no idea of numbers etc

 

[LLETSA]

I remain entirely unconvinced by square/public space-occupying politics in the western European context. It always seems contrived, coming as it does through copycatting first the fake 'colour' revolutions of the former Soviet bloc, and now the events in the Middle East, which may or may not yet turn out to be equally fake-and fake or not will definitely not have a socialist (or whatever you want to call it) outcome.

Still nobody on this thread can say how the Spanish protestors can make the journey from their protest to having their demands implemented.

 

[dennisr]

I remain entirely unconvinced by square/public space-occupying politics in the western European context. It always seems contrived, coming as it does through copycatting first the fake 'colour' revolutions of the former Soviet bloc, and now the events in the Middle East, which may or may not yet turn out to be equally fake-and fake or not will definitely not have a socialist (or whatever you want to call it) outcome.

Still nobody on this thread can say how the Spanish protestors can make the journey from their protest to having their demands implemented.

Surely part of any 'journey' would be a situation where folk are in a better position to discuss and question everyday assumptions - the ones you document with monotonous regularity in virtually every post you make in the UK forum - ie a situation where individuals isolated alienation is replaced with a recognition that you are not on your own and the 'how' questions come to the fore - that millions think 'its all shite' - large forums where ideas can rapidly develop and evolve into far more than 'square/public space-occupying politics'? Surely, one of the key problems we all face - our isolation from each other - is being broken down. The election results reflect the underlying trends in Spanish society far less than these mass youth movements. People learn from their own actions.

These demonstrations are a huge opportunity for far more than your usual poo-pooing. Its an opportunity my organisation, and any other worth its salt, is taking full advantage of at the moment - not on urban75 but at these events. Its a start - a significent start - to discussing and answering the very questions that you raise. The same is true in the Middle East.

Why don't you provide some answers rather than repeatedly pointing out the supposed failure of other posters to do so?

Sometimes I like the realism of your posts - other times you are just a depressive cynic

 

[LLETSA]

Surely part of any 'journey' would be a situation where folk are in a better position to discuss and question everyday assumptions - the ones you document with monotonous regularity in virtually every post you make in the UK forum - ie a situation where individuals isolated alienation is replaced with a recognition that you are not on your own and the 'how' questions come to the fore - that millions think 'its all shite' - large forums where ideas can rapidly develop and evolve into far more than 'square/public space-occupying politics'? Surely, one of the key problems we all face - our isolation from each other - is being broken down. The election results reflect the underlying trends in Spanish society far less than these mass youth movements. People learn from their own actions.

These demonstrations are a huge opportunity for far more than your usual poo-pooing. Its an opportunity my organisation, and any other worth its salt, is taking full advantage of at the moment - not on urban75 but at these events. Its a start - a significent start - to discussing and answering the very questions that you raise. The same is true in the Middle East.

Why don't you provide some answers rather than repeatedly pointing out the supposed failure of other posters to do so?

Sometimes I like the realism of your posts - other times you are just a depressive cynic

I haven't said that people shouldn't participate in actions like this, though, have I? What I've said is that I don't see where this kind of protest (or any other), can go politically. Which Is why I ask how people think the demonstrators' 'demands' can ever be implemented. Who's going to do it?

I don't try to provide answers because as far as I can see there are no answers to this dilemma. We were maneouvred into a trap, partly of our own making, a good while ago. Other posters do see some sort of reason for hope in all this, which is why I ask the above question.

 

[dennisr]

I haven't said that people shouldn't participate in actions like this, though, have I? What I've said is that I don't see where this kind of protest (or any other), can go politically. Which Is why I ask how people think the demonstrators' 'demands' can ever be implemented. Who's going to do it?

I don't try to provide answers because as far as I can see there are no answers to this dilemma. We were maneouvred into a trap, partly of our own making, a good while ago. Other posters do see some sort of reason for hope in all this, which is why I ask the above question.

Whats the point of this play with words? You have given your reasons why there would be no point - because, in your opinion - it can go nowhere.

Yes, people are all over the place politically. Yes, there is an element that is as opposed to the potential power of workers as much as the power of the bosses and the establishment - solutions are confused. Surely that does not surprise you?. The thing is - the question of what they are against is in the open. It has become a matter of daily public debate. Being in the open means that the next small but important step -answering the resulting questions such as 'how do we change this?', 'how to we achieve our demands?' (idealistic or not) comes to the fore.

You say there is no potential solution. So I have to ask - why bother posting on the subject - why not get on with your own life rather than finger-wagging like an old fart at the supposedly young and naive. Your attitude, replicated a million times, is much more 'part of the problem' than any naievity on the part of those involved.

 

[Peter Dow]

Spanish Revolution. #SpanishRevolution Las Palabras De Amor

But where can it go politically?

In what way could the protestors' 'demands' ever be implemented?

The overthrow of the Spanish kingdom and the establishment of a Spanish republic or (perhaps republics, including an independent republic for each of the distinct non-Spanish nations, such as the Basque nation)?

Seems to me if anyone wants a real democracy the least they will need is a national republic with an elected head of state, a president of the republic, empowered to defend the democratic constititional rights of the citizens.

Seems to me expecting the Spanish King to defend anyone's democracy is unrealistic.


FIGH.TK For Freedom Forums



The 2011 May Spanish protests, also referred to as the 15-M Movement, Spanish revolution or Indignados (Spanish for "Outraged") are a series of demonstrations in Spain whose origin can be traced to social networks and the ¡Democracia Real Ya! (Real Democracy Now!) civilian digital platform, along with 200 other small associations.

The video features photographs of the 2011 Spanish revolution protests and solidarity People of Europe Rise Up for Real Democracy protests in London, Edinburgh and Berlin.

The music used is by Queen: "Las Palabras De Amor".
Music by Brian May, Sung by Freddie Mercury.

This is a partisan video which promotes republican leadership of the Spanish revolution 2011.

The video recalls and celebrates the inspiration of the Second Spanish Republic 1931-1939 cut short by the defeat to the forces of the Fascist General Franco, using recordings of the republican leader Dolores Ibárruri, "La Pasionaria".


Not my video this next one, but pretty good!

 

[LLETSA]

The overthrow of the Spanish kingdom and the establishment of a Spanish republic or (perhaps republics, including an independent republic for each nation state, where there are distinct non-Spanish nations, such as the Basque nation)?

Seems to me if anyone wants a real democracy the least they will need is a national republic with an elected head of state, a president of the republic, empowered to defend the democratic constititional rights of the citizens.

Seems to me expecting the Spanish King to defends anyone's democracy is unrealistic.





The 2011 May Spanish protests, also referred to as the 15-M Movement, Spanish revolution or Indignados (Spanish for "Outraged") are a series of demonstrations in Spain whose origin can be traced to social networks and the ¡Democracia Real Ya! (Real Democracy Now!) civilian digital platform, along with 200 other small associations.

The video features photographs of the 2011 Spanish revolution protests and solidarity People of Europe Rise Up for Real Democracy protests in London, Edinburgh and Berlin.

The music used is by Queen: "Las Palabras De Amor".
Music by Brian May, Sung by Freddie Mercury.

This is a partisan video which promotes republican leadership of the Spanish revolution 2011.

The video recalls and celebrates the inspiration of the Second Spanish Republic 1931-1939 cut short by the defeat to the forces of the Fascist General Franco, using recordings of the republican leader Dolores Ibárruri, "La Pasionaria".

It seems everything gets called a revolution in these hyperbolic times. It isn't a revolution. It isn't anything remotely resembling a revolution and will not be a revolution.

 

[LLETSA]

Whats the point of this play with words? You have given your reasons why there would be no point - because, in your opinion - it can go nowhere.

Yes, people are all over the place politically. Yes, there is an element that is as opposed to the potential power of workers as much as the power of the bosses and the establishment - solutions are confused. Surely that does not surprise you?. The thing is - the question of what they are against is in the open. It has become a matter of daily public debate. Being in the open means that the next small but important step -answering the resulting questions such as 'how do we change this?', 'how to we achieve our demands?' (idealistic or not) comes to the fore.

You say there is no potential solution. So I have to ask - why bother posting on the subject - why not get on with your own life rather than finger-wagging like an old fart at the supposedly young and naive. Your attitude, replicated a million times, is much more 'part of the problem' than any naievity on the part of those involved.

Missed this earlier because of all the distracting photos in the post below it.

It isn't 'play with words.' As I said, I'm not opposed to anybody taking part in such protests, and I haven't accused anybody of naivety. That doesn't mean that I have to see it going anywhere politically. I don't believe it will do so, in terms of the protestors' 'demands' being implemented, for the simple reason that even if people are starting to ask the questions you suggest, no force is going to come out of any of this capable of doing so.

To be able to see a problem without pretending to have a solution doesn't mean that saying so can't be part of the debate. Sometimes you come close to saying that unless you purport to have answers, you should keep your mouth shut. And you're far from the only one on here.

 

[JHE]

Seems to me if anyone wants a real democracy the least they will need is a national republic with an elected head of state, a president of the republic, empowered to defend the democratic constititional rights of the citizens.

If there is a resurgence of republicanism among Spaniards, great! Roll on the Third Republic! But I've not seen anything to suggest that the question of the monarchy is any sort of priority among the protestors or the general public.

Seems to me expecting the Spanish King to defends anyone's democracy is unrealistic.

But he DID, FFS! I don't know how much you have ever done or expect to do in defence of democracy, but what Juan Carlos did in Feb 81 is rather more than most of us ever manage!

Because of his role in the transition and his role in thwarting the coup of 23F, Juan Carlos has quite a lot of respect, at least among people old enough to remember the period.

 

[audiotech]

“Whoever expects a ‘pure’ social revolution will never live to see it."

V. I. Lenin, Collected Works, Vol. 22, p. 274

 

[newbie]

Oh noes, they are not doing the 'twinkling' are they?

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-.../Movimiento/elpgal/20110517elpepunac_3/Zes/19

is that really such a bad thing? Comes, I think, from audiences of hearing impaired people, but whether that's the case or not it's a method of showing approval for what someone has said (or signed) without interrupting them. Professional speakers know how to milk applause but for those with less polished oratory it just drowns them out. 'Twinkling' allows popular points to be reinforced without interrupting the flow.

 

[LLETSA]

“Whoever expects a ‘pure’ social revolution will never live to see it."

V. I. Lenin, Collected Works, Vol. 22, p. 274

Irrelevant comment of the week.