Spain anti-politics protests
- Thread starter Lo Siento.
- Start date
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
next neighbourhood assembly, saturday at midday. Will report back progress/developments
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
grrr juventudes sin futuro have written a book 
golden rule *don't write books about movements that haven't bloody achieved anything yet, ffs*
golden rule *don't write books about movements that haven't bloody achieved anything yet, ffs*
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
Any indication of anti-union sentiment in these protests, as claimed in the Economist, Lo Siento?
http://www.economist.com/node/18744055
http://www.economist.com/node/18744055
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
well, from the indignados the anti-union sentiment is pretty high, not in the way the economist articulates it though. They're pissed off that the unions aren't doing enough (or in fact anything) to defend their rights.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
that's a truly piss-poor article btw. The spin their putting on it about the government being brave enough t do what they think is necessary to save the spanish economy, basically amounts to the exact opposite of what the indignados want (as well as being dumb anyway)
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
This, especially, is totally disingenuous. No one, absolutely no one, among the people protesting, is complaining about the two-tier nature of the labour market. What they're complaining about is that their "tier" of the labour market is shit - that even those in work are being paid shit wages, getting no job security and no sight whatsoever of any better jobs coming along.
They're definitely not saying "strip away labour market protections!" and certainly aren't saying "lower the value of our wages!" In fact they're arguing the precise opposite, that they should get the same protections and the decent wages that some previous generations of workers got.
It's utterly delusional to state that countries like Spain - where the cost of living is basically the same as the UK - can kick start export economies based on lowering people's standard of living. It's the mother of all shite plans. Because first of all, Spain won't ever be cheap enough to make it a better place to export than Eastern Europe. And second of all, lowering everyone's living standards defeats the fucking purpose of economic growth. It's a total non-solution.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yep, the anarchist tradition that organised Spain's largest ever union.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
another neighbourhood assembly today. Maybe slightly less people today, but hard to tell as the venue was a bit bigger. The assembly functioned much better today, and the best received contributions were about working on a local level with local problems as far as possible.
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
If you want peace, prepare for war
No professional military is going to accept pacifism as a credible way to defend their people. This video does harm to any chance of recruiting the Spanish military to support the Spanish revolution. The revolution needs support in the military to survive. Therefore this video needs and deserves facepalming by supporters of the revolution. Instead it has 36,000 views. This video does not help the revolution, if anything, it weakens it.
If we want a world of peace then we need to be prepared to fight and win any war that others begin against us.
Likewise any revolution must prepare its military defence against the expected counter-revolution which when it comes, will be anything but peaceful.
We need to be most concerned about the conservatives who want to keep the status quo.
The Spanish King and the conservatives, royalists and fascists in the Spanish state are poised to smash this revolution, are probably straining at the leash to unleash their forces upon the protestors. The urgent issue is defending against the expected counter-revolution from these conservatives.
The status quo, unlike this video, cannot be face-palmed away. Those who want to reverse the gains of the revolution do need to be faced down or defeated ultimately by a military which has been politically educated and inspired to want to defend the revolution.
This sounds-like-Icke video does not help us with slogans likeVoice over sounds like David bloody Icke ffs
Spanish revolution-15M said:
No professional military is going to accept pacifism as a credible way to defend their people. This video does harm to any chance of recruiting the Spanish military to support the Spanish revolution. The revolution needs support in the military to survive. Therefore this video needs and deserves facepalming by supporters of the revolution. Instead it has 36,000 views. This video does not help the revolution, if anything, it weakens it.
If we want a world of peace then we need to be prepared to fight and win any war that others begin against us.
Likewise any revolution must prepare its military defence against the expected counter-revolution which when it comes, will be anything but peaceful.
We need to be most concerned about the conservatives who want to keep the status quo.
The Spanish King and the conservatives, royalists and fascists in the Spanish state are poised to smash this revolution, are probably straining at the leash to unleash their forces upon the protestors. The urgent issue is defending against the expected counter-revolution from these conservatives.
The status quo, unlike this video, cannot be face-palmed away. Those who want to reverse the gains of the revolution do need to be faced down or defeated ultimately by a military which has been politically educated and inspired to want to defend the revolution.
JHE
.
Oh, for goodness sake! People round here do get over-excited and lose contact with reality. There is no revolution going on in Spain. There was a protest movement which formed with impressive suddenness. The people have a great deal to protest against. The remnants of the protest camps are lingering in some cities (and, I'm told, are getting more than a bit smelly), but most protesters have moved on. We will have to wait and see if anything more permanent comes of the protests. There is talk of the movement continuing in people's own neighbourhoods. Talk of bloody counter-revolution is silly and unhelpful.
free spirit
more tea vicar?
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Oh we know that the state being rebelled against prefers to talk about their bloody counter-revolutionary actions in terms such as "clean ups".
We know that the state thinks that the notion of defending against attacks they ordered is "silly and unhelpful" (to the state's arbitrary exercise of state power).
Well I can't smell them from here so I will take your word for it. At some point the smell will be too much for the protestors themselves and at that point they will decide to clean themselves up.
Protest campers cleaning themselves up
Meantime, there is no harm in the health authorities publicising public health messages to the campers explaining the need for cleanliness etc. Such gentle persuasion methods are appropriate whereas brutal force is not. This is how to help. This is not being silly.
Simply "waiting" for the next attack doesn't deter the next attack.
Defending your established revolutionary positions by seeking and obtaining support from the military can indeed deter the next attack and can see it off if and when it comes.
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Peter Dow, standard bearer
I like "standard bearer".
This is not the first occasion of Scottish / Spanish solidarity in the cause of democracy.
Many years ago, Scottish volunteers serving with the International Brigade fought on the side of the Spanish republic which was under attack from the fascist General Franco.
The Flag of the Spanish Republic - (For Freedom Forums Avatar Gallery)
International Brigade veterans Bob Doyle, Jack Edwards and Jack Jones with the banner of the British Battalion of the International Brigade, at the unveiling of a monument in Belfast on 12 October 2007, dedicated to the Irish volunteers who served with the XV International Brigade.
The Scots Who Fought Franco, 1936-1938 (The Scottish National Standard Bearer website)
The Scots who fought Franco - Hosted on YouTube as a 10-video playlist (94 minutes).
Video: "The Scots Who Fought Franco" was broadcast on Scottish Television, STV on 13th & 20th August 2009.
A poignant and compelling look at the extraordinary role Scots played in the Spanish Civil War. Through previously unseen archive interviews, those who were there tell their stories of idealism, hope and horror. Their incredible contribution is charted through interviews with experts and relatives, and footage of Spanish battlefields - as they were then, and now.
"Though they could not defeat Franco, the Scots who went to Spain had squared up to fascism before the rest of the world got around to it. Scotland can be proud of them."
I am very proud to fly the Scottish national standard, the Lion Rampant, in solidarity with the Spanish demonstrators in Edinburgh.
The people of Scotland stand up to be counted with the people of Spain!
¡Democracia Real Ya!
(Real Democracy Now!)
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Voice over sounds like David bloody Icke ffs
It sounds like David Icke because it is David Icke.
JHE
.
Peter D,
Posting vids of some plod thuggery from two weeks ago does nothing to support your notion that there is a revolution in Spain and an impending counter-revolution.
I wish you the best of luck with your project of winning soldiers and army officers to the cause of revolution (whether in Scotland or Spain), but it really doesn't help anyone to pretend there is a revolution now. There isn't.
Posting vids of some plod thuggery from two weeks ago does nothing to support your notion that there is a revolution in Spain and an impending counter-revolution.
I wish you the best of luck with your project of winning soldiers and army officers to the cause of revolution (whether in Scotland or Spain), but it really doesn't help anyone to pretend there is a revolution now. There isn't.
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
There is.
The mass demonstrations combined with their political demands are indeed characteristic of a political revolution and a revolution which I support, as should anyone who supports democracy and good government.
The videos of "plod thuggery" posted were not of casual violence by a couple of police officers taking a dislike to someone, it was an ordered mass-police attack on the orders of a minister of the Spanish crown in Catalonia.
The police or other officers ploddishly and thuggishly obeying the orders of the crown ministers and judges, in large operations like that, or in small operations such as to take someone from their home to court or from court to prison is exactly how a kingdom or any undemocratic state typically imposes an undemocratic rule.
The police routinely put down any protest large or small which challenges the status quo. This is the method of choice which a police state uses to deny democracy or government by all the people.
Using the police against the people or outspoken persons is how the police crush democracy on a daily basis. Police heavy-handedness and disrespect for dissenting voices, encouraged and backed up by ministers and judges is the key defining characteristic of a modern police state.
Without "plod thuggery" to depend on, a modern police state cannot continue to rule as before. The police state's "jacket is on a loose peg" so to speak.
Certainly, the judges and ministers of the police state can try to reimpose their authority by ordering up police actions to crush protests or by ordering the military in "Bloody Sunday" style.
The videos show one such attempt. There will be more such attempts I predict. Such attempts are critical in any attempt to restore the old order, to smash and defeat the democracy which is so offensive to those of a fascist mindset who have ruled for all those years with the population silenced.
Such police actions are precisely attempts to reverse the revolution, to have no more of this "getting out onto the streets and having your say business", to enforce the counter-revolution.
Until the police state imposes a counter-revolution, meanwhile a revolution is under way.
Democracy is something which just happens unless the police state smashes the people, beats and terrorises the people into obeying judges, ministers and police of the state, right or wrong.
If the state can't, dare not, use force against citizens exercising democratic rights to protest, then a democratic revolution is in the making.
However, the state can and does dare to use force against citizens exercising democratic rights to protest and I am right to warn of the dangers ahead and to advise the protestors to secure their positions by seeking military support.
The revolution versus counter-revolution conflict is in play. There may be a lull in the action right now, but the Spanish people are not defeated, they have tasted freedom and they will want to keep it. The state has tasted humiliation and they will want to prevent that.
Game on.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
I think you need a cold shower Peter.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I'm sorry Peter D but you come across like an out of date Pamphlet. Agitating in the military in 1917 was one thing but in modern day Spain it's quite another. In fact, it sounds abstract and out of sync with the reality on the ground. There's more Ghandi here than Lenin.
No one in the "Indignados" movement here has even given it a thought. The military are just not around to be able to talk to them and I doubt they would be interested. For a movement to bare weight in such matters it would have to be huge and come from a long established tradition that is not the case here.
The whole idea at the moment is peaceful protest. Of course this will achieve very little and the police will bash people anyway (They bashed people in 3 cities last night) but it's too early to call this a revolution. It's more like a laboratory, an experimental period whose outcome or direction is still unclear.
The politicians are carrying on like nothing has happened and the crisis is set to bite harder.
Demos on a national scale set for the 19th of this month. Can't wait..
PS, The camps are winding down now which is not such a bad thing as they were beginning to get a bit of a shabby image with more shaggy people in attendance. Things need to be kept fresh.
No one in the "Indignados" movement here has even given it a thought. The military are just not around to be able to talk to them and I doubt they would be interested. For a movement to bare weight in such matters it would have to be huge and come from a long established tradition that is not the case here.
The whole idea at the moment is peaceful protest. Of course this will achieve very little and the police will bash people anyway (They bashed people in 3 cities last night) but it's too early to call this a revolution. It's more like a laboratory, an experimental period whose outcome or direction is still unclear.
The politicians are carrying on like nothing has happened and the crisis is set to bite harder.
Demos on a national scale set for the 19th of this month. Can't wait..
PS, The camps are winding down now which is not such a bad thing as they were beginning to get a bit of a shabby image with more shaggy people in attendance. Things need to be kept fresh.
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
The essentials of power remain the same. The military call the shots. We the people always need the military to call the right shots, shots which defend the people, not shots which are directed against the people.
The mechanisms of agitating have changed with the change in communications technology. The how has changed. The who and the why have not changed.
Consider the legacy of Ghandi. The Indian military.
That is what expererienced educated revolutionaries like myself are for - to give such matters thought, to look ahead, to chart a course, to warn of dangers, to propose solutions.
Oh and who is it that can ban the military from using the internet?
They are interested. They are curious. Right now their political masters are presenting the military with every possible argument in favour of crushing the protests.
If the Spanish revolutionaries are not presenting their case to the military for support then right now, they, and we, because I am with you, are losing the argument with the Spanish military by default.
The demonstrations were huge. That is enough people to get a hearing with the military. But you have to say something to them.
The right to peaceful protest requires defending by the military.
They way it should work in a democracy is this. The military defend the state. The state has police to defend the right to protest.
In a police state, the state does not use the police to defend the right to protest but to attack the right to protest.
You need to explain to the military that this is not a state we can trust to defend the people. The military must step in to defend the people against the state.
Peaceful protest, the right to do so, can achieve everything.
As I warned, as I predicted. You have neglected asking for and gaining protection from the military so the police state is picking the protests off one by one. The revolution is being smashed.
No it is a revolution but what we are seeing now is the counter-revolution - the police beating protestors off the streets.
This has happened many times in history. It is clear if you do not secure support in the military the police will smash the revolution.
The politicians are confident because the revolutionaries are not seeking or gaining support from the military so they have a free hand to crush the protests at their leisure.
Perhaps the less shabby people have been terrorised off the streets, afraid of being bashed by the police? Perhaps to save face this is being spun as the camps being "smelly" not "fresh" etc so they need to close?
Peter Dow
Standard Bearer
Fascist pigs smash protest in Valencia
9th June 2011. Police beat a protestor semi-conscious to the ground and arrest other protestors outside the Valencian parliament.
Here is the video more info in Spanish.
and this is what Google-translate makes of that
It looks like the counter-revolution is proceeding apace.
9th June 2011. Police beat a protestor semi-conscious to the ground and arrest other protestors outside the Valencian parliament.
Here is the video more info in Spanish.
and this is what Google-translate makes of that
It looks like the counter-revolution is proceeding apace.
JHE
.
Yes, thank goodness for expererienced educationed revolutionaries!
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