Spain anti-politics protests

[Anudder Oik]

The camp in Barcelona voted to shut up shop in favour of encouraging assemblies in the neighbourhoods. Madrid will leave an info stand in place in the Sol Square and take the camp on a tour of the barrios (neighbourhoods) to encourage participation.

They are building for the 19th of june demos which will take place all over the country. Seen posters up.

In Barcelona a group of "ocupas" (Squatters) has decided to continue camping in the Catalunya square. The 15M movement and the assemblies have distanced themselves from this lot.

If anything the ocupas in Plaza Catalunya will give the movement a bad name. They are crusty alcoholics who are heavily into lifestyle politics, dog on a string, dirty clothes, drugs and no political analisis. The sort that makes ordinary workers run a mile.

I have no doubt that the politicians will set the dogs on them and they will react by looting or similar (unlike the peaceful protestors who gained sympathy by not reacting to the police aggresion) and then the press will apply psychological pressure by relating them to the 15M movement in order to put people off.

Anyway, the majority should be able to tell the difference.

 

[Peter Dow]

Thank you

Yes, thank goodness for expererienced educationed revolutionaries!

Although I can do a quick spell-check by copying and pasting my posts into my word-processor, I have no quick way to proof-check my posts for grammatical errors.

Since you are so keen to point out my errors, I would appreciate it if you volunteered to proof-check my website - SCOT.TK and my posts in my forum FIGH.TK.

Interested? It is for a good cause.

 

[Peter Dow]

The camp in Barcelona voted to shut up shop in favour of encouraging assemblies in the neighbourhoods. Madrid will leave an info stand in place in the Sol Square and take the camp on a tour of the barrios (neighbourhoods) to encourage participation.

They are building for the 19th of june demos which will take place all over the country. Seen posters up.

In Barcelona a group of "ocupas" (Squatters) has decided to continue camping in the Catalunya square. The 15M movement and the assemblies have distanced themselves from this lot.

If anything the ocupas in Plaza Catalunya will give the movement a bad name. They are crusty alcoholics who are heavily into lifestyle politics, dog on a string, dirty clothes, drugs and no political analisis. The sort that makes ordinary workers run a mile.

I have no doubt that the politicians will set the dogs on them and they will react by looting or similar (unlike the peaceful protestors who gained sympathy by not reacting to the police aggresion) and then the press will apply psychological pressure by relating them to the 15M movement in order to put people off.

Anyway, the majority should be able to tell the difference.

I have much sympathy with your viewpoint.

At the beginning of these protests certain rules for these protests were stated - "no alcohol, no drugs & no flags".

I think the "no alcohol and no drugs" rules were correct and the protestors should insist on those rules and specifically ask the police to arrest and remove from the protest such drunks and junkies.

If the numbers in the protests dwindle to the point that drunks and junkies and their supporters are approaching a majority and can no longer be easily excluded then that is the time to call "protest completed" for sure.

This is why the protestors need identifiable flags and banners to display at protests when their legitimate protests are going on, so that when the protestors decide to end a protest and remove your official flags and banners then this can be a sign to the authorities that they have a free hand to remove remaining rule-breaking types.

So the "no flags" rule was wrong. The protestors need flags and banners flown by protest leaders so as to establish standards, discipline and rules.

Without such official flags and banners, no the majority won't easily be able to tell the difference. It is important to demonstrate the difference. To show that the protestors are not the dirty scum of society. Do not rely on the majority of people knowing the difference, they won't, not without flags and banners.

Also the political enemies of the protestors will wish to confuse the two sorts - say the protestors and the scum are the same, so all should be smashed off the streets.

So failing to show the difference weakens your defence. The difference must be obvious even to a fool, and that takes a lot of showing the difference.

Indeed as you imply, having rules of protesting and firm stewarding backed up by the police is essential to gaining and keeping support with the honest working-class and the middle class and to support an appeal to the military.

Likewise, a "no dogs" except blind/seeing-eye dogs, and police drug-sniffing dogs, and a "no ferrets" rule could be enforced. Otherwise pets will be shitting and peeing everywhere.

The additional benefit of having protest rules enforced is that it is political education against anarchist ideas which are unrealistic and don't work.

The whole anarchism idea leads to degeneration of anything worthwhile so if anarchists are allowed to lead protests unchallenged by republicans and socialists, the protests will eventually be doomed.

So the Spanish protestors, many of them young people, are on a learning curve. This is part of the revolution. It can still be won.

Yes they need to smarten up their game, remove the rule-breakers, set standards, have official banners and flags and a leadership composed of republicans and socialists, not anarchists.

Do all that and, essentially, make an urgent appeal for support to the miltary and this revolution can still be won, despite the police state attempts at counter-revolutionary violence to smash democratic protests.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And of course the Spanish military has a proud tradition of supporting progressive movements... oh, hang on...

 

[Lo Siento.]

they packed up sol last night. Good move I think. Should have done it a week ago IMO

 

[Peter Dow]

Progressive reform or violent revolution?

And of course the Spanish military has a proud tradition of supporting progressive movements... oh, hang on...

"tradition"? This is intended by many Spanish protestors to be a Spanish revolution. Revolutions, if they need to, take in-the-way traditions out the back and have them shot.

Think of the French and Russian revolutions and what happened to the French and Russian monarchies.

Non-revolutionary movements wanting only mild progressive reform can use more subtle and gentle means of persuasion to bring traditionalists along.

For example, progressive British movements have established the national health service and the welfare state by working around the monarchy tradition rather than overthrowing it.

The Spanish republicans attempted revolution by trying (and ultimately failing) to establish the 2nd Spanish republic from 1931 to 1939.

One must be prepared to use robust military methods to defend any revolution.

It is no good attempting a revolution yet limiting yourself to only progressive movement methods.

If is no good saying to a king, "Would your majesty mind stepping down as monarch because we'd like a republic?" He will say "sure" then he will send his fascist generals to kill you.

I suspect that there was a degree of naivety early on in the 2nd Spanish republic. I guess that the Spanish republicans neglected their military defence because they didn't realise until much too late what they were up against.

The Spanish republicans in 1931 needed to identify the monarch and loyalist generals such as Franco as the enemy and take decisive methods to prevent violent fascist counter-revolution.

They needed to ask their republican army to arrest or kill Franco as soon as possible, while it was still possible.

Generally speaking, if protestors are not prepared to ask the military to fight to defend the revolution then don't try to have one because you will get very badly beaten up or killed.

Instead of revolution there is the option of gentle reformist methods which take traditionalists with you.

Many people have said this is a Spanish revolution. My reading of the mass demonstrations and the fact that the existing political class of elected politicians is not leading these demonstrations indicate it is a revolution, though to be sure, the counter-revolution is hard at work too.

Reformism would tend to operate by existing politicians taking a leading role and there would be little in the way of street confrontations with the police state if any.

I am just explaining how to win this revolution.

Winning military support and deploying supportive military in defence of the revolution is essential to defend any revolution.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Jesus Christ.

 

[ddraig]

not a very good pic of the camp outside Cardiff Castle (taken from across main road)
sunny today but been chucking it down all weekend

 

[Peter Dow]

Jesus Christ.

Another revolutionary who neglected military defence of the revolution he led.
Later Christian soldiers had more success.

Live by the sword, die by the sword
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Pacifists. Love them but don't follow their advice about how to win a revolution.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Nobody is arguing in favour of pacifism Peter. I was speaking about the role of the Spanish military in the revolution/civil war. The relationship between the Spanish military and Spanish citizens is not the same is that of, say, Egypt or Venezuela. Yes, were this a revolution it would need to be defended militarily. But I'm not convinced that it's a revolution and I doubt very much that if it were it would receive backing from the Spanish Military.

 

[shaman75]

19 June (Sunday), all over Europe (and Trafalgar Square - 6pm)

We are the outraged, the anonymous, the voiceless. We were there, silent but alert, watching. Not gazing upward at the powers that be, but looking from side to side for the right time to unite with each other.

No political party, association or trade union represents us. Nor do we want them to, because each and every one of us speaks for her or himself. Together, we want to design and create a world where people and nature come first, before economic interests. We want to design and build the best possible world. Together we can and we will. Unafraid

The first sparks started to fly in the Arabic countries, where thousands of people took over streets and squares, reminding their governments where the real power lies. The Icelanders followed, taking to the streets to speak their mind and decide their future. And it wasn’t long before Spaniards occupied squares in neighborhoods, towns and cities. Now the flame is swiftly spreading through France, Greece, Portugal, Italy and Turkey, and the cries of peaceful demonstrators echo across America and Asia, where new movements are cropping up everywhere. Only a global revolution can confront global problems. The time has come for the woman and man in the street to take back their public spaces to debate and build a new future together.

This is a call to the #Globalrevolution on 19 June. We're calling on people everywhere to peacefully occupy public squares and create spaces for debate, assembly and reflection. It's our duty to reclaim the public arena and together forge the kind of world we want to live in.

Take the square!!! Take the streets!!! #Globalrevolution

People of the World, rise up!!!

http://takethesquare.net/

 

[Peter Dow]

Nobody is arguing in favour of pacifism Peter.

Didn't someone post a video in which someone-who-sounds-a-lot-like-David-Icke did exactly that?

I was speaking about the role of the Spanish military in the revolution/civil war.

Isn't it clear from my reply that I understood that? I addressed precisely your point.

The relationship between the Spanish military and Spanish citizens is not the same is that of, say, Egypt or Venezuela.

The military are the ones who call the shots in any country.
Each country has its own constitution.
What is your point?

Yes, were this a revolution it would need to be defended militarily.

Exactly.

But I'm not convinced that it's a revolution and I doubt very much that if it were it would receive backing from the Spanish Military.

The police bashing the protestors off the streets is what is doing the convincing right now that unless the protestors do quickly get protection from the military it is not going to be a successful revolution whatever our hopes.

If the protest leaders do not seek military support then there is no doubt that the military will not spontaneously turn up to defend the protests.

There is no doubt that the military siding with the protestors is a key factor in any successful revolution.

There is no doubt that the protestors would get a sympathetic hearing from many in the military, though not from all to be sure.

If revolutions were slam-dunk sure-thing certainties there would be more of them. As it is, there is always some doubt as to how any attempted revolution will turn out. The Spanish need no reminding of that.

My advice to the protestors is not to learn political lessons the hard way by getting bashed up by the police. That is no way to run a revolution and no way to run a reformist progressive movement either.

If this is a revolution then let the military do the fighting.

If this is not a revolution but a peaceful reform movement then stop risking violent confrontation with the police.

 

[dylans]

What on Earth are you talking about? You really are a nutcase. The Spanish military is not about to split from the Spanish state in order to defend a protest movement from cops. You really are insane. On the one hand you wrongly categarise a protest movement as a revolution, then insist that one of the organs of the state can be won to that "revolution" regardless of the fact that there is not a scrap of evidence that the stability or cohesion of the state is in anyway under threat or that there is any attempt to overthrow the Spanish state. The military is always the last force to go over to a revolution and never before victory ie the total overthrow of the old order is assured. Nothing like this is happening in Spain. You post a bizarre mixture of slavish support for reactionary imperialist wars in Iraq and cheerleading for neo-con warmongers such as George Bush, John Bolton and Condeleeza rice and then absurdist ultra ultra leftist catastrophism that see's an impressive yet spontaneous protest movement as a revolution combined with ridiculous appeals to one of the key organs of the state to join your non existent revolution. You are ridiculous. a total loony.

 

[Peter Dow]

What on Earth are you talking about?

In this topic, Spain.

The Spanish military is not about to split from the Spanish state in order to defend a protest movement from cops.

Not if they are not asked to they won't.

On the one hand you wrongly categarise a protest movement as a revolution,

You have wrongly spelled "categorise".

It is not my or your decision whether the Spanish protestors opt for revolution or reform or neither; it is up to them.

If they opt for reform then no doubt their own politicians can help them with that.

If they are interested in the revolution option I think we should help them with that.

then insist that one of the organs of the state can be won to that "revolution" regardless of the fact that there is not a scrap of evidence that the stability or cohesion of the state is in anyway under threat or that there is any attempt to overthrow the Spanish state.

With respect the Spanish military is not just "one of the organs of the state" which I picked out as the most "up-for-revolution" organ of the state.

I picked out the military for discussion because the military is the sole determining organ of the state when it comes to matters of revolution. They are the go-to-guys if you want a revolution.

The military is always the last force to go over to a revolution and never before victory ie the total overthrow of the old order is assured.

Eh? Neither the old order nor the new order is assured without the support of the military.

In a potentially revolutionary scenario, like Spain recently, both the leaders of the old and new order need the military to support them; the old guard to keep the status quo, the revolutionaries to secure the change.

Agreed the military start off on the side of the old order and the onus is on the revolutionaries to win support from the military for a new order.

Nothing like this is happening in Spain.

It is precisely because I fear that the Spanish protestors are not urgently seeking support from the military that they are neglecting a critical leadership move for a successful revolution and so leaving themselves open to police state violence which leaves them with fewer options.

You post a bizarre mixture of slavish support for reactionary imperialist wars in Iraq and cheerleading for neo-con warmongers such as George Bush, John Bolton and Condeleeza rice

No it was Saddam who fancied himself as some kind of emperor.

The Bush administration led the USA and a coalition of other countries to help the Iraqi people with their democratic revolution against Saddam. There is no "Emperor Bush" ruling Iraq today. It is governed by the people of Iraq. The outcome is progressive not "reactionary" as compared to dictatorship under Saddam.

Neither was my support was "slavish". See my IraqMission videos on YouTube for my constructive criticisms.

and then absurdist ultra ultra leftist catastrophism

that see's an impressive yet spontaneous protest movement as a revolution combined with ridiculous appeals to one of the key organs of the state to join your non existent revolution.

So you are impressed with the protests but not enough to recognise the revolutionary potential of these protests? Fair enough; that's your view. I disagree. I think there is such revolutionary potential in Spain now.

Again if there is an attempt at revolution, it will not be "my" attempt but that of the Spanish revolutionaries.

I am not the one making an appeal to the Spanish military to support the protestors. I can't even speak Spanish.

I am pointing out that in order to defend against police attacks and allow protestors to assert a new constitutional right to protest, such appeals to the military would be the revolutionary way forward. I am supporting and advising this way forward. I don't claim my advice will be taken but here it is for what it is worth.

The other reasonable option is to withdraw from the streets in face of police brutality and opt for the hope of modest reforms under the guidance of existing Spanish politicians.

There is no shame in admitting that peaceful democratic protestors have been outgunned by the police and don't want to risk an escalation to a violent revolution with an uncertain outcome.

The shame if any is due, falls on the Spanish military for allowing their own people to be smashed off the streets by the fascist police state.

 

[dylans]

you're a nutcase.

 

[Peter Dow]

you're a nutcase.

 

[SpineyNorman]

you're a nutcase.

I nutcase I've just put on ignore - only the second time I've ever done that anywhere.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Update.
The Indignados have surrounded the Cuidadella park in Barcelona. The parliament is inside this park and the politicians are due in tomorrow (wednesday) to push thru their bills of cuts after giving themselves a pay rise.

Photo from 10p.m. gmt

http://yfrog.com/kht7hdj

I have never seen anything like this before...People doing what I have always wanted to do.

 

[Peter Dow]

Update.
The Indignados have surrounded the Cuidadella park in Barcelona. The parliament is inside this park and the politicians are due in tomorrow (wednesday) to push thru their bills of cuts after giving themselves a pay rise.

Photo from 10p.m. gmt

http://yfrog.com/kht7hdj

I have never seen anything like this before...People doing what I have always wanted to do.

It is a big turn out. I do hope the protest is about allowing the voices of all the people to be heard around the parliament.

I do hope that the protestors don't try to prevent elected members of parliament going to parliament. I hope the protestors don't try to block the way in for the parliamentarians. Fair enough to shout at them on the way in. But don't try to stop parliament working.

The problem with constitutional monarchy parliaments are the elected people who are often not allowed to get into parliament and have their say - republicans, suspended members, etc - we don't solve that problem by excluding everyone - and insisting on an empty parliament.

If the King or crown prince of Spain turns up - that is different - the royals should be not only put out of the parliament but put out of the country for doing a rotten job as head of state.

Remember Spanish folks - democracy means government by all the people
- not government by "all except the elected members of parliament."

 

[Anudder Oik]

I think the "no alcohol and no drugs" rules were correct and the protestors should insist on those rules and specifically ask the police to arrest and remove from the protest such drunks and junkies.

That statement hardly supports your revolutionary credentials does it, asking the police to remove the wuffians from a revolution. Do you think the lot in 1917 got on the blower to ask the coppers to come down and remove pot smoking hippies from the lawns of the Smolny Institute? Get real man. The police are the second line of defence of the state, the first being the media, which has failed here. We don't invite them to the camps, we tell them to go to hell.

And before you come back with a rant, No, there aren't plans for workers patrols yet....

 

[Peter Dow]

That statement hardly supports your revolutionary credentials does it, asking the police to remove the wuffians from a revolution. Do you think the lot in 1917 got on the blower to ask the coppers to come down and remove pot smoking hippies from the lawns of the Smolny Institute? Get real man. The police are the second line of defence of the state, the first being the media, which has failed here. We don't invite them to the camps, we tell them to go to hell.

And before you come back with a rant, No, there aren't plans for workers patrols yet....

You were the one who identified the problem I was talking about.

If anything the ocupas in Plaza Catalunya will give the movement a bad name. They are crusty alcoholics who are heavily into lifestyle politics, dog on a string, dirty clothes, drugs and no political analisis. The sort that makes ordinary workers run a mile.

I have no doubt that the politicians will set the dogs on them and they will react by looting or similar (unlike the peaceful protestors who gained sympathy by not reacting to the police aggresion) and then the press will apply psychological pressure by relating them to the 15M movement in order to put people off.

If you have a solution for this problem then fine.

 

[Anudder Oik]

You were the one who identified the problem I was talking about.



If you have a solution for this problem then fine.

I think if the movement as a whole keeps its momentum, then the crusty bit shouldn't be a problem.

Big demos coming up this sunday. I can't wait. I'm pissed off that I'm not in Barcelona tonite to join the protest there.

They have changed the name of some of the streets near the parliament.

This one is now called Indignation Avenue

A view of one of the park gates.

and a view showing what's round the corner on the left of the above image

Families, children, couples and a Tai chi class were all evicted from the public park and it was then locked down by police and the gates padlocked. Barriers have been erected around the Parliament.

 

[Peter Dow]

A view of one of the park gates.

and a view showing what's round the corner on the left of the above image

Now, there's many a politician would be intimidated by having to pick their way through that crowd to get to parliament. A move we don't want is the politicians using the protest as an excuse to call in the riot police to clear a path to the parliament or even to remove all demonstrators from the vicinity of the parliament. Neither do we want the politicians driving over protestors and crushing or killing anyone under the wheels of their cars or bigger vehicles.

The smart thing to do would be to not give the politicians an excuse by the protestors leaving a clear route into parliament.

I am not saying that would guarantee the politicians wouldn't call the riot police in - they could call the riot police in anyway damn them


- but clearing a path for them in advance would show what excellent and well-mannered democrats the protestors are - this would show to the military that if the police are unnecessarily brutal, there again is a reason for the protestors calling upon the military to defend the democratic right to protest.

 

[audiotech]

Hello, hello, hello.

 

[shaman75]

Well that looks a bit dodgy

 

[ddraig]

well fuckin dodgy!
we know it happens, really good to see it captured so well
fair play to the protestors for not hammering the fuck out of them, great restraint

 

[Peter Dow]

Hello, hello, hello.

Aw, and they left without having a dance.

 

[Lo Siento.]

Hello, hello, hello.

proper obvious that. We'll see if anyone except Publico (who've been really supportive of the whole movement from the start) actually reports it. The free papers were full of lurid reports of the quite minor violence.

 

[Random]

I nutcase I've just put on ignore - only the second time I've ever done that anywhere.

Will do the same myself. Several good threads in world have been killed for me by Dow's spamming communiques.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

lol.