Solutions to the 'problem' of immigrant workers?

[dennisr]

So what you have to do is create something that has 'enlightened faith' in a way...

Maybe, I don't think i am the right person to put this idea into practice though - i be caught out at some point laughing to myself about the gullibility of folk - the religion would have an almighty schism resulting in not one but many religions and they would all hate one another more than the non-believers.

I'm happy to introduce 'socialist shiboleth' chanting (and even dance routines) if it would help get us all one step nearer heaven on earth

 

[e19896]

Maybe, I don't think i am the right person to put this idea into practice though - i be caught out at some point laughing to myself about the gullibility of folk - the religion would have an almighty schism resulting in not one but many religions and they would all hate one another more than the non-believers.

I'm happy to introduce 'socialist shiboleth' chanting (and even dance routines) if it would help get us all one step nearer heaven on earth

We digress but then in my thoughts a little digression is of use at times. I like religion not in the organised way far too much shit happened to friends due that fact, but in the way it is far more radical than i have seen many of the left being over the years.

A few years i was introduced into dialectics for every wrong there is a right for every right there is a wrong etc.

One reason i name myself Marxist Pagan but the other is i commune more with the earth these days than i have ever done and it is that act alone that has taught be far more than politics has done over the years an old hippy bastard oh yes your right man and we all need some 'socialist shiboleth' chanting at times i have never been more at peace then when i have been doing some of my own 'socialist shiboleth' chanting and this week it has been to sonic youth.

Forgive the digression just had to share back to topic.

 

[mk12]

As youve guessed, in a 'perfect' world, I wouldn't want any borders.
That does not mean I am going to make that the basis of my arguements with folk on immigration or a major demand when approaching workers. Frankly, as a demand its irrelevant, utopian and would only help in cutting me off any chance of beginning a debate in the real world with most folk, from which I could find common ground, at this moment in time.

If someone comes up to me and says 'I don't want any borders' then I'd agree that ultimately we want the same thing but the question is how do we get to a stage where for most people borders become an irrelevance? - I'd argue we have to start from where most of us are 'at' now rather than where I might wish other folk to be.

Good post btw. Very common sensical.

 

[snadge]

Personally, I feel that it is imperative to address the gaping loopholes available to companies to circumnavigate employment law.

The practice of setting up agencies in EU countries that allow them to ignore lawfully agreed wage rates, once they set their sites towards eastern europe you will see people working for less than minimum wage, lawfully, as the workers signed contracts in their country of origin, thus avoiding compliance.

 

[dennisr]

Personally, I feel that it is imperative to address the gaping loopholes available to companies to circumnavigate employment law.

The practice of setting up agencies in EU countries that allow them to ignore lawfully agreed wage rates, once they set their sites towards eastern europe you will see people working for less than minimum wage, lawfully, as the workers signed contracts in their country of origin, thus avoiding compliance.

I'd agree it needs to be changed - how do we change the situation though? appeals to governments and the Eu bureaucracy?

The GAMA workers battle in Ireland was a classic example imo of both what happens and how to fight against it successfully. A Turkish-based multinational got loads of government contracts by undercutting local firms. It used cheap turkish labour - workers seperated off in site billets, unaware that they were having millions stolen from them and secreted away in Dutch bank accounts.

The video of the struggle is available here: http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/gama/gamaadvert1.htm

"Revelations during the course of this struggle about the brutal exploitation of migrant workers, about the systematic theft of these workers’ wages by GAMA, and about the complicity of the Irish state and political establishment in, for years, turning a blind eye to what was happening, rocked Irish society at the time and will have lasting repercussions.

In making a stand against this modern day slavery, the GAMA workers, together with the Socialist Party, have struck a blow for the rights of migrant workers and workers generally. They have written one of the proudest chapters in Irish labour history."

despite a vicious campigan (familes threatened at home in turkey... attempted starving of pickets back to work)against the workers organising with the support of Irish trade unionists and the likes of Joe the SP TD (MP) in the Dublin Parliament they won - an won tens of thousands of stolen backpay. The Irish government was shamed into acting as a result of the publicity

Just google 'GAMA workers' for more info

added: At a time of rising anti-immigration mood in Ireland as a result of immigration the GAMA struggle, and the shocking publicity it generated, seems to me to have been the most important antidote to the danger of racist divisions between workers in Ireland that could be put forward

 

[snadge]

I agree dennisr, as you say though, how?

The more this blatent scam is allowed to continue the more rascism will show it's ugly head, atm in my industry, engineering construction, mainly power stations, most of the English workers actually understand why this is happening.

It doesn't matter if the migrant workers are part of the union, there is nothing they can do if their contracts were signed in country of labour origin.

All I can see is a bigger vote for the BNP next election.

 

[snadge]

BTW Eire has it sorted, ALL employess on blue book designated sites get the correct rate, irrespective of where they came from.

 

[dennisr]

atm in my industry, engineering construction, mainly power stations, most of the English workers actually understand why this is happening.

It doesn't matter if the migrant workers are part of the union, there is nothing they can do if their contracts were signed in country of labour origin.

All I can see is a bigger vote for the BNP next election.

Not sure of the legal status but wasn't there a recent dispute where local workers (at a power station) got the east europeans into the union to cut across them being used to cut the local workers conditions and won? I remember it being largely presented as 'isn't it nice the uk workers showing how anti-racist they are by supporting the migrants rights' actually it seems like a practical way of defending ones own right through a campaign for equal pay and conditions - the unity of the groups of people that resulted was simply a bonus.

I agree - the danger of the BNP is a big one. Its a bit off topic (and i think a discussion on 'solutions' to the problems of immigration - and applying those solutions - are part of the answer to the growth of the BNP) but here is something I read which i think sums up my view:

"The BNP is exploiting the vacuum that exists by posing as a party of the ‘white working class’ and, in a few areas, it has been able to win the votes of sizeable sections of the working class, at least in local elections. It is also starting to attract a layer of the petit-bourgeois, as demonstrated by the ‘prima-ballerina’ who recently joined it. The BNP’s written material often contains superficially ‘left’ propaganda against NHS cuts, low pay and so on combined with racism which, while subtler than its material of the past, is nonetheless designed to whip up racist hatred. The recent court case unsurprisingly revealed that, while its official statements may have become more subtle, when talking to each other and those they consider ‘their supporters’ they remain as crudely racist as ever. However, the court case also demonstrated that the BNP will not be successfully marginalised just by using the bourgeois courts, or by pious statements from mainstream politicians. On the contrary, given that it is a deep-seated alienation from the capitalist politicians that is fuelling electoral support for the BNP, such statements are more likely to increase its support than undermine it. The need for a class-based alternative to the BNP is central to limiting its further growth. Therefore, if there is a further delay in the development of a new mass workers’ party, the possibility is posed that the BNP could make a more qualitative electoral breakthrough – establishing itself as a semi-stable far-right racist party, such as exists in many countries of Europe. The experience of most other European countries is that the active membership of these parties remains limited but they are able to win the allegiance of a significant section of voters. Although there are other factors, including the, up until now, clumsy and crude approach of the BNP, it will be the consciousness and combativity of the labour movement, and particularly the development of a new party, which will be the central factor in pushing back the BNP. However, as events in Belgium have shown, the threat of the far-right, with a section of the most conscious workers, can at a certain point act as a catalyst for the creation of a new workers’ party."

I hope if people want to reply to this bit though they will start a seperate thread on the topic - that would be greatly appreciated

 

[snadge]

Not sure of the legal status but wasn't there a recent dispute where local workers (at a power station) got the east europeans into the union to cut across them being used to cut the local workers conditions and won? I remember it being largely presented as 'isn't it nice the uk workers showing how anti-racist they are by supporting the migrants rights' actually it seems like a practical way of defending ones own right through a campaign for equal pay and conditions - the unity of the groups of people that resulted was simply a bonus.

I agree - the danger of the BNP is a big one. Its a bit off topic (and i think a discussion on 'solutions' to the problems of immigration - and applying those solutions - are part of the answer to the growth of the BNP) but here is something I read which i think sums up my view:

"The BNP is exploiting the vacuum that exists by posing as a party of the ‘white working class’ and, in a few areas, it has been able to win the votes of sizeable sections of the working class, at least in local elections. It is also starting to attract a layer of the petit-bourgeois, as demonstrated by the ‘prima-ballerina’ who recently joined it. The BNP’s written material often contains superficially ‘left’ propaganda against NHS cuts, low pay and so on combined with racism which, while subtler than its material of the past, is nonetheless designed to whip up racist hatred. The recent court case unsurprisingly revealed that, while its official statements may have become more subtle, when talking to each other and those they consider ‘their supporters’ they remain as crudely racist as ever. However, the court case also demonstrated that the BNP will not be successfully marginalised just by using the bourgeois courts, or by pious statements from mainstream politicians. On the contrary, given that it is a deep-seated alienation from the capitalist politicians that is fuelling electoral support for the BNP, such statements are more likely to increase its support than undermine it. The need for a class-based alternative to the BNP is central to limiting its further growth. Therefore, if there is a further delay in the development of a new mass workers’ party, the possibility is posed that the BNP could make a more qualitative electoral breakthrough – establishing itself as a semi-stable far-right racist party, such as exists in many countries of Europe. The experience of most other European countries is that the active membership of these parties remains limited but they are able to win the allegiance of a significant section of voters. Although there are other factors, including the, up until now, clumsy and crude approach of the BNP, it will be the consciousness and combativity of the labour movement, and particularly the development of a new party, which will be the central factor in pushing back the BNP. However, as events in Belgium have shown, the threat of the far-right, with a section of the most conscious workers, can at a certain point act as a catalyst for the creation of a new workers’ party."

I hope if people want to reply to this bit though they will start a seperate thread on the topic - that would be greatly appreciated

cotham power station, as mentioned before the employers now use agencies in country of origin.

they have it sussed, it is going to get a lot worse.

 

[dennisr]

cotham power station, as mentioned before the employers now use agencies in country of origin.

thats the one - was a brilliant example of whats possible

 

[Nigel]

Whipps Cross Hospital Is Another Example Of Where Casual Labour Was Organised.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Dennis wanted to ask you a bit more about what belboid was saying because I still don't think you gave an answer (and the SP doesn't seem to be able to). There seems, as belboid said, no way to square the circle.

If the SP turns into anything like a significant organisation immigration controls will be something you'll have to have an answer to. I saw it on Question Time a couple of years back with an SSP woman. The presenter pushed her on immigration controls, saying do you support them. She tried to avoid an answer but in the end couldn't and just said "of course I support them".

So if the SP stands to become an MP or becomes a significant organisation what answer would you give here and now. If you're asked "what do you think about immigration controls here and now" what answer would you give? Do you say you support them or not?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

BTW Eire has it sorted, ALL employess on blue book designated sites get the correct rate, irrespective of where they came from.

Unless the employer hides millions of euros of their wages in secret bank accounts in Holland (see under GAMA scandal).

 

[durruti02]

good op's dennisr so would be finickity and to say you have slightly misrepresented me!! or that you are not first peson to attempt this!! .. see below, which i pmed you and others about at the time! BUT please this is not important .. your ops are good and when i have time to read them properly will reply properly .. doubt there will be much i disagree on ... i've pmed you by the way


10-08-2006, 04:53 PM
durruti02

Quote:
" ..Originally Posted by Hawkeye Pearce
A ..It seems that some of us agree that immigration is mainly another scam run by the ruling class at the expense of both those who come over here and are forced into sometimes dangerous and horrendously underpaid work and the working class as well.
B ..So my question is what is the best way to approach this issue from a standpoint that opposes capitalism? As it is clear that the so called far left are largely failing to do this in any remotely satisfactory way?


and my reply

" ..HP i agree with A..

EXCEPT that the main left current in this country the SWP and its fellow travellers ( who i call PC liberal lefties ) still do not get it!! .. and they do have an influence out of all proportion to their size, on the left and how it is seen generally .. and have had a disasterous effect in this area along with their foolish allies of the ANL/UAF etc

B .. well first i think we need to be honest about immigration and why it is happenning .. i think only then will people take the left seriously ..

as i have stated repeatedly ( and incredibly been ridiculed by swpers who should theoretically agree) i belive there is a simple and clear w/c solution

first that the trade unions/Left come out and actually say what is going on

second a mass TU/Left campaign inside and outside of work/industry against casualisation/privaisation and specifically against recruitment abroad / and or for lower wages than the going rate

third a campaign in the left/TU's for revival of the closed shop

fourth a campaign against firms using cheap imported labour to cut costs ( as was done with the seaworkers Irish Ferries campaigns)

fifth to campaign that both work and housing should be allocated locally to sons and daughters ( regardless of race .. whatever that may be ) to create sustainable communities

and finally, but only as part of the above, a campaign for legitimisation of illegal workers so they can be recruited into unions and thus AGAINST immigration controls ... this should be combined with a campaign to confront racism and to explain that it is not immigrants who are the problem but capitalism that uses immigration and ABUSES immigrants

and i can guarantee there is not a single thing in these solutions that the neo libs can agree with .."

 

[cockneyrebel]

fifth to campaign that both work and housing should be allocated locally to sons and daughters ( regardless of race .. whatever that may be ) to create sustainable communities

Really don't get this, either as a theory or how you'd put it into practice, I asked you before and didn't really get an answer.

Firstly why do you stop at housing and work? Why don't you expand it to the NHS, schools etc

Secondly how will this work. What geographical areas will you use (boroughs for housing maybe, what about for work?). Also if I move from south to north London will I suddenly have no priority for housing and jobs? And how do you assess need? Do you say that regardless if someone has far more need if they move into a new area they go to the back of the queue for housing and jobs?

 

[snadge]

Unless the employer hides millions of euros of their wages in secret bank accounts in Holland (see under GAMA scandal).

They got collared though, employers have a viable loophole to pay migrant workers a lower rate in UK, in Eire they haven't.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

They got collared though

Years after they started doing it. And only because a small socialist organisation managed to gather a load of evidence, brought it up in the Dail, found out about the bank accounts and managed to get some former GAMA employees there. And most importantly because the workers themselves came out on strike. If any of the above hadn't happened there's no reason to believe that GAMA would have stopped or would have been stopped. By the time the strike ended, I believe there was more than 40 million euro in Holland.

What's more, a whole series of smaller scale instances of grotesque exploitation were only uncovered in the wake of the GAMA strike. It's likely that these may never have been revealed either if the GAMA workers hadn't gone on strike.

 

[snadge]

Years after they started doing it. And only because a small socialist organisation managed to gather a load of evidence, brought it up in the Dail, found out about the bank accounts and managed to get some former GAMA employees there. And most importantly because the workers themselves came out on strike. If any of the above hadn't happened there's no reason to believe that GAMA would have stopped or would have been stopped. By the time the strike ended, I believe there was more than 40 million euro in Holland.

What's more, a whole series of smaller scale instances of grotesque exploitation were only uncovered in the wake of the GAMA strike. It's likely that these may never have been revealed either if the GAMA workers hadn't gone on strike.

This is digressing from the subject matter though.

As I have said, a few times now, Eire blue book orkers get paid the correct rate of pay for their job, irrelevant of country of origin.

UK has a huge, gaping loophole to allow those same companies to employ cheap migrant workers, wait till the Rumanians and Bulgarians start coming over, £1.50 per hour is a fortune to them.

 

[dennisr]

Whipps Cross Hospital Is Another Example Of Where Casual Labour Was Organised.

Yep, its not exactly the same thing we have been talking about but there are a lot of similarities. The agency staff were bought in to break the organised union at whipps cross. Many of these agency staff were also migrant workers - mainly african women. The campaign led by the likes of Len (an SP member who the employers attempted to get rid of but to thier horror kick-started a new battle to defend him by his members) bought those agency staff into the union and won equal pay. All the workers - indigenous and migrant - gained from this and the union branch was re-vitalised as a result. They are now playing a leading role in the wider campaign to defend the NHS locally and nationally - something that would not have been possible without the experiences gained from this dispute.

Like the GAMA strike these are examples of exactly how the active 'left' actually work - both happen to have been led by SP members. Some on the 'left' could rightly be critisised for not putting forward a class-based solution to the problems working people face from use of divisive cheap labour but even this 'left' are not the cause of the problems - the bosses are - these fools are just an irrelevance in the real world of work and in existing communities and not representative of a real socialist respose imo, somewhat over-represented on internet bulletin boards though!

 

[dennisr]

good op's dennisr so would be finickity and to say you have slightly misrepresented me!! or that you are not first peson to attempt this!! ..

Yep, my apologies, I really was not sure of your position. Given the endless threads trying to prove a point about the use of immigration being a problem on you part and without anything about your proposed solutions that i had noticed I was assuming the worst and hoping for the best when you responded to my slight provocation (i think the fact that you have not clearly seperated your views from some of tb's ramblings has not helped my view of your position)

As with CR I think the slipping in of the 'sons and daughters' bit is a mistake that could lead to the opposite of what you intend (pandering to racism, when there is no need for it if one puts across a clear position in a careful manner that explains how we are 'looking after our own', imo) - the rest helps me understand your view better

I'll come back to the 'sons and daughters' bit - I suppose part of putting forward a solution to the problems we all face is asking how we present those solutions as well. (but feck, we had better work towards agreeing what those solutions could be first - and i don't think we disagree on much). For example how we pose opposition to cheap labour recruitment in a way that does NOT say we are putting one group of workers against other workers

Most of the initial info I posted actually came from Socialist Party discussion material (hence the overuse of the word 'layers'). I hope it cuts across the idea often put across on this bulletin board that many on the left are not seriously considering the reality people are facing and the respose to this

 

[dennisr]

Dennis wanted to ask you a bit more about what belboid was saying because I still don't think you gave an answer (and the SP doesn't seem to be able to). There seems, as belboid said, no way to square the circle.

I thought you might

The Militant/SP has used the demand 'no to racist immigration controls' in the past and has been attacked by the 'purist' revolutionaries for doing this. "Arn't all immigration controls racist?" "Arn't you lot pandering to racism?" they asked from their isolated but rightous sidelines. We replied that the demands are simply propaganda, pointing out that these controls are ultimately racist - part of getting a dialogue going - that is more important. Sometime we even argued (and i don't think this was particularly clever, but anyway...) by posing a counter-question: are all immigration controls inevitably racist anyway? - could you not see a situation were a workers state would impose controls?... such as on old dictators getting medical treatment while remaining immune from international law - don't be ridiculous they said... Personally, I could not give a fig what such folk think - i want to win rather than to be 'rightous' but useless in changing the situation in practice.

So if the SP stands to become an MP or becomes a significant organisation what answer would you give here and now. If you're asked "what do you think about immigration controls here and now" what answer would you give? Do you say you support them or not?

Actually we do have an MP in the Irish Parliament (the Dail? - sounds like 'doyal' to me . Joe Higgins. He has just played a central role in the support needed to win the GAMA dispute, This exposed the use of cheap labour in government contracts and , therefore, the role of the Dail politicians in screwing Irish workers and the cheap Turkish labourers sent in to replace them - so you can imagine those politicians were more than a wee bit pissed off about Joe.

One of the main insinuations (in typical hypocrite fashion...) used against Joe as he carefully revealed the true extent of the governments involvement in this scandal was that he was putting the turkish workers interests before that of the indigenous workers. That he cared about the turkish lot more than his 'own' It came to a head with the comments about "get back to your kebabs" by one minister which actually helped our campaign and was a big embarrassment for those idiots. We (the SP) played off the 'liberal' press against the 'right-wing' press - giving the actual issues good coverage and exposing it all in the eyes of all working people in Ireland. This campaign did more to raise the sights of both Irish and migrant workers than an 'no borders' campaign can do (or a CR attempt at showing the SPs 'inability' to answer questions, o the irony - but thats something i hope you don't take personal like

That is also why we pose the questions very carefully (i cannot speak for the SSP woman)

 

[dennisr]

So my response (if i was forced into it on thier terms):

<smug pedant QT BBC questioner>dennisr, do you or do you not support immigration controls?</smug QT BBC pedant questioner>

<dennisr, raising the class questions that are the real issue>if you can show me immigration controls that forced all migrant workers to accept decent wages, living conditions and trade union rights alongside their indigenous brothers and sisters so the wages and living conditions and trade union rights of indigenous workers were not threatened by the use of these migrant workers by the employers in an attempt to decreace wages, threaten indigenous workers security further and weaken workplace organisation and rights then, yes, i would consider these controls.

If you show me immigration controls that are not actually controls imposed by the employers and used in their interests rather than for both indigenous or migrant workers interests and controls introduced simply because the employers are scared of the dangers of the reaction of the divisive instability they, their greed and desire to make a quick buck without one jot of concern previously for the workers they claim to care so much about now, their willingness to attempt to use migrant workers to lower the wages of indigenous workers and their global economic system have created then, yes, I would consider these controls.

Otherwise the only control that i can see, that will work in our interests, is workers being organised to fight for equal pay and conditions, and, ultimately a bigger share of the pie the employers have stolen from us - from our work, our efforts and our labour. This control is the only way to stop the employers from resorting to divisive methods in the hope we will blame our fellow workers for the problems these greedy hypocrites created. I hope that one day working people will be able to move where they like - not at the behest of employers interests and needs but in cooperation with each other in the same way the employers profits and factories can be moved where they like in their interests and at our expense at the moment and in the same was that the rich can tramp around the world were and when they feel like it regardless of immigration controls and borders simply by flashing the money they have taken from some other poor sods hard work, at the present time.

so fuck off you middle class apologist for tedious, disempowering, sham, boss parliaments and 'politics' ..... </dennisr, raising the class questions that are the real issue and probably taken out and shot but with a smile on his face>

actually, I might drop the last sentence

 

[tbaldwin]

Immigration controls are a reality and are going to remain a reality until there is a massive transformation in wealth distribution.

So given that it is a reality what can the Left say about them and how can we influence matters?.

A majority of people i think would agree that we do need strict immigration controls. I also think a majority of people think its shocking that in this day and age so many people still live in abject poverty.
And the two issues are linked.

It seems perverse that the Left seems so concerned with people from other countries when there in the UK.But hardly concerned by the people who are not in the UK.

The Left could argue strongly against encouraging economic migration and for redistibution of wealth to poorer countries.
Argue that a situation which leads to so much starvation and misery should not be tolerated. Argue that rich individuals and companies should be doing much much more..
But instead a lot of effort seems to go defending the indefenisible.
Economic migration is a solution for some individuals fleeing poverty. But the Left needs to look at collective solutions that start to benefit more than just a lucky few.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

Immigration controls are a reality and are going to remain a reality until there is a massive transformation in wealth distribution.

So given that it is a reality what can the Left say about them and how can we influence matters?.

A majority of people i think would agree that we do need strict immigration controls. I also think a majority of people think its shocking that in this day and age so many people still live in abject poverty.
And the two issues are linked.

It seems perverse that the Left seems so concerned with people from other countries when there in the UK.But hardly concerned by the people who are not in the UK.

The Left could argue strongly against encouraging economic migration and for redistibution of wealth to poorer countries.
Argue that a situation which leads to so much starvation and misery should not be tolerated. Argue that rich individuals and companies should be doing much much more..
But instead a lot of effort seems to go defending the indefenisible.
Economic migration is a solution for some individuals fleeing poverty. But the Left needs to look at collective solutions that start to benefit more than just a lucky few.

Nearly all right

However I don't think it is practical to have stronger border controls at the national level (they are naturally too porous and any stricter controls by themselves are not certain to discourage people while quite possibly leading to more deaths)

So what is the solution then? I don't think there is an easy one, whatever solution we choose is going to be fucking hard. First I'd say all your suggestions are a decent start.

We need to combine that with building decent democratic fighting unions that seek to organise all workers in the UK while building links and solidarity with workers abroad.

We need to build strong and democratic community based structures that are capable of effectively demanding the resources our communities need, and then deciding how we use them, and who we share them with. And yes that includes working class communities having the right to decide who lives in our areas, who works in our areas, and who de deal with and on what terms.

It's not an immeadiate solution but it's one we can aim for now. And we need to.

 

[tbaldwin]

Nearly all right

However I don't think it is practical to have stronger border controls at the national level (they are naturally too porous and any stricter controls by themselves are not certain to discourage people while quite possibly leading to more deaths)

So what is the solution then? I don't think there is an easy one, whatever solution we choose is going to be fucking hard. First I'd say all your suggestions are a decent start.

We need to combine that with building decent democratic fighting unions that seek to organise all workers in the UK while building links and solidarity with workers abroad.

We need to build strong and democratic community based structures that are capable of effectively demanding the resources our communities need, and then deciding how we use them, and who we share them with. And yes that includes working class communities having the right to decide who lives in our areas, who works in our areas, and who de deal with and on what terms.

It's not an immeadiate solution but it's one we can aim for now. And we need to.

I think that a lot of well meaning people seem to be arguing in a defensive way on immigration as an issue of national importance.But the issue is much much bigger than that. Economic Migration is a huge issue across the world..People are risking their lives to migrate and people are dying in countries due to the ongoing plundering of those countries skilled workers.

The Orthodox Left will change their position within the next few years as it becomes more and more obvious even to them,what the real consequences of economic migration are.

 

[SuburbanCasual]

The Orthodox Left will change their position within the next few years as it becomes more and more obvious even to them,what the real consequences of economic migration are.

I think it's already happening to be honest, it's just that they've spent so long fetishising immigrants it's taking them a while to admit their mistake

 

[tbaldwin]

I think it's already happening to be honest, it's just that they've spent so long fetishising immigrants it's taking them a while to admit their mistake

I think that you could well be right.. On the Immigration threads some of the more thoughtthrough respones seem to have been from people who are or were members of larger Left groups.
They seem to be quicker to recognise some of the contradictions in supporting economic migration than a lot of the non aligned liberals on urban.
I think even the SWP will start to change their tune on immigration. Members of the SWP like RPM3 who came on here to argue against what they thought were reactionary elements,maybe took more from the arguements of durruti etc than we realised....