So Tesla

[DownwardDog]

I know that computers have been part of cars for at least three decades now, but this "the car must be allowed to update or it can't be driven" is definitely new and is 100% bullshit. I

It's bullshit in that no car does that.

You can end up with an immobilised Tesla if an OTA update fails (eg due to the 12V li-ion battery failing during the update) but that is an extremely rare occurrence.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I meant lease the car for say 3 years and then give it back and lease a new one. I suspect the whole sustainability of electric cars is the next big debate if not already. I'd like to think they should fit in the EU regs for electrical equipment lasting minimum 10 years for spare parts and what not, but who knows! £40k every 10 years is unrealistic and who knows what the second hand market would be like if you can't replace batteries affordably and dispose of them friendly.

This will be key. There's no reason electric cars shouldn't last longer, although with the current model, it's not in the car manufactures best interests to do so. Most people who buy a new car don't hold on to it for ten years.

 

[DownwardDog]

I'm not sure I'd ever want to buy an electric car due to the battery lifespan issues. Surely leasing is the way forward.

There are more than a few Models S with over a million km on them. The body and interior trim are absolute garbage but the powertrain is massively over engineered.

 

[NoXion]

It's bullshit in that no car does that.

You can end up with an immobilised Tesla if an OTA update fails (eg due to the 12V li-ion battery failing during the update) but that is an extremely rare occurrence.

Updates bricking (or should that be "bouldering"?) folks' cars does seem to be a new thing though. Also you better hope that you don't have an emergency and suddenly need your fancy new electronic motor vehicle while it's updating.

Cars should not be like computers.

 

[DownwardDog]

Updates bricking (or should that be "bouldering"?) folks' cars does seem to be a new thing though. Also you better hope that you don't have an emergency and suddenly need your fancy new electronic motor vehicle while it's updating.

Cars should not be like computers.

Those are all failed updates. The point is that the owner can choose when to do the update. There is no circumstance where the car won't drive just because an update is available.

 

[NoXion]

Those are all failed updates. The point is that the owner can choose when to do the update. There is no circumstance where the car won't drive just because an update is available.

My point is that cars shouldn't need a fucking update in the first place! It is absolutely unnecessary and it bodes ill for car users that this way of designing vehicles is become more popular.

 

[cybershot]

My point is that cars shouldn't need a fucking update in the first place! It is absolutely unnecessary and it bodes ill for car users that this way of designing vehicles is become more popular.

You'd probably change your mind when your car gets hacked or security vulnerabilities are left exposed. People don't intentionally write bad code, but it happens. Just look how easy it is to steal a keyless Ford right now.

I'm all for onboard computers that highlight tons of issues way before I'd notice them myself and enable mechanics to easily identify what's wrong with the car.

 

[DownwardDog]

My point is that cars shouldn't need a fucking update in the first place! It is absolutely unnecessary and it bodes ill for car users that this way of designing vehicles is become more popular.

There's over 100 million lines of code in a Tesla running on two VMs. There is no way anything that complex can be delivered and maintained without software updates.

 

[NoXion]

You'd probably change your mind when your car gets hacked or security vulnerabilities are left exposed. People don't intentionally write bad code, but it happens. Just look how easy it is to steal a keyless Ford right now.

I'm all for onboard computers that highlight tons of issues way before I'd notice them myself and enable mechanics to easily identify what's wrong with the car.

You don't have to worry about hacking if you don't expose critical systems to attack in the first place. Why in the absolute fuck does your ABS need to talk any other computer outside of the car itself? It doesn't. And such systems don't even need to talk to most of the rest of the inside of the car either. There is absolutely no good reason for the brakes to talk with the stereo, with its lovely and vulnerable USB port. Using any kind of wireless protocol for locking and unlocking a car is inherently risky, and if keyless is the only way to get in and out (or can't be disabled), then that literally and deliberately trades security for convenience. Which is a fucking stupid design decision from my perspective.

There's over 100 million lines of code in a Tesla running on two VMs. There is no way anything that complex can be delivered and maintained without software updates.

Yes, because the Tesla was deliberately designed to be that way. The vast majority of the fancy computerised shit is completely unnecessary to the core functionality of a motor vehicle. All that self-driving wank is pointless because on public roads you are legally required to be licenced and capable of driving a motor vehicle without such assistance.

 

[T & P]

I don't know how up to date this article is, but it offers up typical monthly leasing prices for the Renault electric range- see the table near the bottom of the page.

The article also claims Renault is the only brand that currently allows leasing of the batteries for their electric cars. I'm surprised at that...

Electric Cars | BuyaCar

www.buyacar.co.uk

 

[DownwardDog]

The vast majority of the fancy computerised shit is completely unnecessary to the core functionality of a motor vehicle.

A modern IC engine has at least 20 sensors on it; it's impossible to control all of that without a computer. Much of the complication is mandated by emissions and safety regulations. There is simply no way to build a car without them.

You could always buy one of these:

Z24 Pickup

شرکت ایرانی تولید اتومبیل(سايپا)

www.saipacorp.com

Still fuel injection and the Nissan version of OBD1 though...

 

[nick]

I like the looks on that Z24.

Am I ill?

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I like the looks on that Z24.

Am I ill?

No. It's wonderfuly retro.

 

[pbsmooth]

The best selling car in the UK in June was... the Tesla Model 3.

UK: Plug-In Car Sales Surge To Over 17% Market Share In June 2021

The plug-in electric market continues to expand at a rapid rate. In June, the number of registrations increased 131% year-over-year to almost 32,000.

insideevs.com

I believe this is partly due to the way Tesla reports sales, rolling them up into end of quarter.

 

[hitmouse]

This is 100% the funniest and best feature any car has ever had:

Post is real, btw - link is:

 

[SpookyFrank]

Yes, because the Tesla was deliberately designed to be that way. The vast majority of the fancy computerised shit is completely unnecessary to the core functionality of a motor vehicle. All that self-driving wank is pointless because on public roads you are legally required to be licenced and capable of driving a motor vehicle without such assistance.

I assume it's also so when your car goes wrong you have to take it to the Tesla dealership 100 miles away and pay through the nose instead of taking it to Joe's Garage round the corner and paying Joe 50 quid for a generic spare part.

I like having a car with no robot brains whatsoever and I dread the day when such vehicles have become prohibitively outdated.

 

[DownwardDog]

This is balls because a) you only do purchases through the Tesla app and b) auto pilot is standard or a $3,000 option on the Model 3.

Four wheel steering is a 480 euro/year subscription on the Mercedes EQS though.

 

[NoXion]

A modern IC engine has at least 20 sensors on it; it's impossible to control all of that without a computer. Much of the complication is mandated by emissions and safety regulations. There is simply no way to build a car without them.

You could always buy one of these:

Z24 Pickup

شرکت ایرانی تولید اتومبیل(سايپا)

www.saipacorp.com

Still fuel injection and the Nissan version of OBD1 though...

Embedded computerised systems have existed previously in cars without any need for them to have constant updates or activation via a subscription.



You're naive if you think technological development within the car industry isn't being deliberately pushed in a direction which takes more and more control (in a general sense) away from the end user and towards maximum profits for the manufacturers.

It doesn't have to be this way, though.

 

[DownwardDog]

I assume it's also so when your car goes wrong you have to take it to the Tesla dealership 100 miles away and pay through the nose instead of taking it to Joe's Garage round the corner and paying Joe 50 quid for a generic spare part.

I like having a car with no robot brains whatsoever and I dread the day when such vehicles have become prohibitively outdated.

Don't you have a mid-noughties Corsa? (If I remember correctly). That's got twin port injection, variable valve timing, variable geometry intakes, etc. All controlled by a Bosch ECU.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Don't you have a mid-noughties Corsa? (If I remember correctly). That's got twin port injection, variable valve timing, variable geometry intakes, etc. All controlled by a Bosch ECU.

Nope the twin port models were the 54 plates onwards. Mine is an 02.


e2a: Although I'm sure my car has some microchippery in it that I don't understand. But it's not making decisions for me. Most importantly there's no fucking video screen in it.

 

[platinumsage]

Nope the twin port models were the 54 plates onwards. Mine is an 02.


e2a: Although I'm sure my car has some microchippery in it that I don't understand. But it's not making decisions for me. Most importantly there's no fucking video screen in it.

Does it have a choke lever or does it make that decision for you?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Does it have a choke lever or does it make that decision for you?

Yes it decides whether or not it's got a carburetor in it. So far it has chosen 'no' 100% of the time but it could still go either way I suppose.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I can't think of a reason the software couldn't be rolled back after a failed update, or why the car doesn't come with a USB key containing a basic OS that'll get you back to the point where you can drive the car again.

 

[Teaboy]

There's actually much fewer parts to go wrong on an electric cars, apparently. There's a fair chance the garage round the corner will be reduced to just doing breaks and tyres.

 

[Chz]

Nope the twin port models were the 54 plates onwards. Mine is an 02.


e2a: Although I'm sure my car has some microchippery in it that I don't understand. But it's not making decisions for me. Most importantly there's no fucking video screen in it.

Microchips running cars dates to the 70s. My '88 BMW had a half dozen computers in it doing various things. Thankfully they were all extremely basic and therefore pretty robust, so I can see where you're going with the modern stuff. Fact is, fuel injection didn't really take off until it could be computer controlled - so you can date things to that. (Mechanical injection is just shit. I'd rather tune a carb than deal with it.)

 

[Saul Goodman]

Fact is, fuel injection didn't really take off until it could be computer controlled

I had a couple of MK1 Golf GTIs and a 16v Mk2 that would give you a good argument. Pretty sure lots of cars, including Porsches used the Jetronic CIS (constant injection system), long before EFI came about, and it worked very well.

 

[Chz]

I had a couple of MK1 Golf GTIs and a 16v Mk2 that would give you a good argument. Pretty sure lots of cars, including Porsches used the Jetronic CIS (constant injection system), long before EFI came about, and it worked very well.

Jetronic is awful. It's fiddly, the parts have incredibly strict tolerances (thus expensive), and it's an absolute bastard to tune right.
Outside of racers, who are happy to spend their lives tweaking away, Motronic was superior in every way.

There are plenty who do like it, but they're tweak-happy. They want to spend an afternoon tuning their fuel mixture.

 

[weltweit]

I see more and more tesla's while I'm out and about, there was a white one on the motorway yesterday.

 

[two sheds]

Only kids though, and they're very small.

 

[8ball]

Only kids though, and they're very small.

But not necessarily far away.