I don't disagree but that's not a Tesla thing, that's an all modern cars thing.
So Tesla
- Thread starter BigMoaner
- Start date
I don't disagree but that's not a Tesla thing, that's an all modern cars thing.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Did they change that? because I heard otherwise.
I've only heard of Teslas being like that.
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
My wife's new X5 gets an 800MB update about once a month. Just like a Tesla it can't be driven while the upgrade is in progress which takes about 20 minutes but you can choose when it happens.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Our electric trike (fully boxed in) cost the equivalent of a few hundred quid, charges off the mains, top speed of 40kmh and a range of about fifty 
Actually fine for most of our everyday transport needs. Our ours is much more beat up than this brand new one ETA actually slightly different model on second look, ours is two door:
Actually fine for most of our everyday transport needs. Our ours is much more beat up than this brand new one ETA actually slightly different model on second look, ours is two door:
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Our electric trike (fully boxed in) cost the equivalent of a few hundred quid, charges off the mains, top speed of 40kmh and a range of about fifty
View attachment 268107
That's awesome. Reminds me of the auto rickshaws in India without the horrible two stroke engines. Do you steer it with handle bars?
mauvais
on reddit or something
On a related note this assessment of the Changli is interesting: We Took The World's Cheapest EV To A Car Manufacturing Expert. He Lost His Shit
I like how the invoice describes it as a 4-wheel electric tricycle.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Electric cars are cheaper to have over the course of their lifetime already. Lots of people lease cars now so it's a question of how much the lease costs each month. You can afford a bigger monthly leasing cost if your monthly fuel and maintenance costs are lower.
Electric Dreams: Green Vehicles Cheaper Than Petrol
www.directlinegroup.co.uk
but costs of electric cars are falling, and BloombergNEF (admittedly I don't know whether they are a great source) reckon they'll be cheaper by 2027: Electric cars ‘will be cheaper to produce than fossil fuel vehicles by 2027’
With all the mass manufacturers that have announced move to full EV production across their lines over the next 20 years, prices are bound to fall.
Most people will charge overnight at home or during the day in a car park. There's some huge, huge, huge, huge issues around local capacity for electricity and whether substations and associated cabling can cope with the demands of everyone getting EVs and charging them at home, but that's not about the hassle of charging.
As far as long distance journeys go, Teslas V3 superchargers will get up to 15 miles per minute of charge up to 80% capacity so that's potentially 300 miles in 20 minutes (I think the reality is around 150-200 miles in real world conditions from what I've read). Whilst other manufacturers might not be there yet (and not all teslas/chargers can do it) there's no technical block here - it's just a matter of time. And during that time, battery capacity and vehicle range will increase so that 80% charge will take you further and further for those 20 minutes - time you should be spending having breaks from driving on long journeys anyway.
But as beesonthewhatnow says, EVs are not the answer, they don't solve the problems of "cars" at all for obvious reasons, and the climate change/petrol emissions air pollution side of things, the amount of power that would be needed to replace the existing ICE fleet is huge and I don't think it can be done, not at a local or national level. Especially when you add in the desire to switch heating from natural gas to electric. Plus you are switching that pollution for the pollution created by battery production and recycling/disposal.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Electric cars are cheaper to have over the course of their lifetime already. Lots of people lease cars now so it's a question of how much the lease costs each month. You can afford a bigger monthly leasing cost if your monthly fuel and maintenance costs are lower.
.Electric Dreams: Green Vehicles Cheaper Than Petrol
but costs of electric cars are falling, and BloombergNEF (admittedly I don't know whether they are a great source) reckon they'll be cheaper by 2027: Electric cars ‘will be cheaper to produce than fossil fuel vehicles by 2027’
With all the mass manufacturers that have announced move to full EV production across their lines over the next 20 years, prices are bound to fall.
Most people will charge overnight at home or during the day in a car park. There's some huge, huge, huge, huge issues around local capacity for electricity and whether substations and associated cabling can cope with the demands of everyone getting EVs and charging them at home, but that's not about the hassle of charging.
As far as long distance journeys go, Teslas V3 superchargers will get up to 15 miles per minute of charge up to 80% capacity so that's potentially 300 miles in 20 minutes (I think the reality is around 150-200 miles in real world conditions from what I've read). Whilst other manufacturers might not be there yet (and not all teslas/chargers can do it) there's no technical block here - it's just a matter of time. And during that time, battery capacity and vehicle range will increase so that 80% charge will take you further and further for those 20 minutes - time you should be spending having breaks from driving on long journeys anyway.
But as beesonthewhatnow says, EVs are not the answer, they don't solve the problems of "cars" at all for obvious reasons, and the climate change/petrol emissions air pollution side of things, the amount of power that would be needed to replace the existing ICE fleet is huge and I don't think it can be done, not at a local or national level. Especially when you add in the desire to switch heating from natural gas to electric. Plus you are switching that pollution for the pollution created by battery production and recycling/disposal.
Oh yeah, I think it's inevitable that the cost will come down, and performance/convenience improve (obviously good things); my point was that, until that happens, that'll be a big bar to mass uptake of fully EV.
But, like you say, we need to move away from cars of any sort, where possible. There needs to be a massive investment into public transport. But little political will for that, and little public appetite for the taxation that'd entail.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Yes, handle bars. Has a fan and a windscreen wiper though
Slightly undersold the range too, more like 70km
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
Some Canadian car magazine just took a Model S Plaid to the drag strip and it ran 9.23s/152mph in the quarter. Officially the world's fastest accelerating production car.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Which is yet more proof that electric cars solve nothing.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
That is legitimately stupid. I'm no engineer, but isn't it a good idea to reduce the potential points of failure? Rather than grow them? It wasn't that long ago I had driving lessons, the car I was learning to use was a tiny manual hatchback. The radio was probably the most complicated electronic item in the thing, and I never touched it.
I would have thought it more sensible to keep the complicated internet/satnav/multimedia shit in its own sub-system, so that if it breaks the vehicle can still be driven normally, you just can't listen to Spotify or use voice control or whatever bullshit. Apparently the industry disagrees.
That's appalling. The kind of shitty design choices I would expect from inside an Apple product. You shouldn't have to partially dismantle a vehicle to get it going again if its battery goes flat.
This kind of user-unfriendly shit underlines the importance of the right to repair.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Are you familiar with John Deere tractors and the right-to-repair battles over there in the US? Insanity.
That is legitimately stupid. I'm no engineer, but isn't it a good idea to reduce the potential points of failure? Rather than grow them? It wasn't that long ago I had driving lessons, the car I was learning to use was a tiny manual hatchback. The radio was probably the most complicated electronic item in the thing, and I never touched it.
I would have thought it more sensible to keep the complicated internet/satnav/multimedia shit in its own sub-system, so that if it breaks the vehicle can still be driven normally, you just can't listen to Spotify or use voice control or whatever bullshit. Apparently the industry disagrees.
That's appalling. The kind of shitty design choices I would expect from inside an Apple product. You shouldn't have to partially dismantle a vehicle to get it going again if its battery goes flat.
This kind of user-unfriendly shit underlines the importance of the right to repair.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Peripherally. A guy I watch on YouTube who covers right to repair issues for consumer electronics has brought up John Deere as an example in another industry. John Deere are an arrogant bunch apparently:
High Voltage
In the top 97% of Urban's most interesting posters
When I rule the world, I'll make it law that on any motor vehicle, basic consumer items on the vehicle should be easily repairable by the average home owner without having to resort to any specialist tools (Jaguar / headlight bulbs I'm talking about you, as an example)
If the vehicle manufacturer insists, for design or manufacturing convenience to not design a vehicle so, then, for the life of the vehicle, NOT just the first owner, but the life of the vehicle, then worn or broken part should be fitted FREE OF CHARGE by the main dealer, and once out of warranty, the owner could supply parts that they'd bought for the dealer to fit, so pattern parts would be fine
If the vehicle manufacturer insists, for design or manufacturing convenience to not design a vehicle so, then, for the life of the vehicle, NOT just the first owner, but the life of the vehicle, then worn or broken part should be fitted FREE OF CHARGE by the main dealer, and once out of warranty, the owner could supply parts that they'd bought for the dealer to fit, so pattern parts would be fine
nick
Pleomorphic Adenomas R us
What's the cornering like?Yes, handle bars. Has a fan and a windscreen wiper though
JimW
支那暗杀团
OK, never feels like it would roll, you get very high winds coming down off the mountain behind here some seasons though and it's a bit light then, feels like you have to fight to keep it going straight at times. Same when a big truck goes by. Deals pretty well with the rough as fuck roads here too, including really rutted dirt tracks and massive potholes. Did have the stabilising bar, sort a u-shaped piece attached to forks and round the front wheel snap but a bloke welded it up and it's good to go. Noticed when that was broke though, even though the mechanic reckoned it was safe to drive
Because them and similar flatbeds etc are so common here it makes driving them slightly less stressful than it would be in the UK I reckon as other drivers are expecting you and don't get pissy about having to overtake.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
It would be a lot easier for people to get third-party repairs done, if manufacturers didn't pull shit like telling other manufacturers who make the components for their stuff not to sell the components to anyone else. I don't know if it happens in the automotive industry, but it does happen in consumer electronics. That kind of thing cripples independent repair.
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
The best selling car in the UK in June was... the Tesla Model 3.
insideevs.com
UK: Plug-In Car Sales Surge To Over 17% Market Share In June 2021
The plug-in electric market continues to expand at a rapid rate. In June, the number of registrations increased 131% year-over-year to almost 32,000.
insideevs.com
Having recently done a lot of research into electric cars I now know why people buy Teslas. Minor moaning about some of the build quality and attention to detail becomes irrelevant when you look at the whole package that they offer which is still miles ahead of the traditional car makers and their overall electric car offering.
Its just a shame that there still isn't a below £40k Tesla in the UK yet.
Its just a shame that there still isn't a below £40k Tesla in the UK yet.
DownwardDog
Riding a Brompton with a power meter.
The vehicles need the computers to be driven at all. Fuelling, ignition, throttle, transmission, brakes, etc. are all software controlled. Some judicious CANBUS probing of my wife's X5 hybrid has turned up nine computers on its internal network.
It would not be possible to homologate a new car with carbs, points, etc and it wouldn't be a viable mass market product.
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
I know that computers have been part of cars for at least three decades now, but this "the car must be allowed to update or it can't be driven" is definitely new and is 100% bullshit. It's part of a wider attempt across technology-heavy industries to push everyone into the more lucrative "service" model as opposed to the "product" model. It's all about squeezing out ever more revenue. They create the problem with their shitty systems that need updates, and handily offer users a "solution" that enables them to disguise their shitty (for us) business model with the excuse of "convenience".
There's more such bullshit going on in the automotive industry aside from that, like installing components by default, but requiring payment to actually get them working.
cybershot
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I'd ever want to buy an electric car due to the battery lifespan issues. Surely leasing is the way forward.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
It seems that companies that do lease the batteries charge quite high prices. Which would be a bit of for me (assuming I had somewhere to charge one, which I don't)
cybershot
Well-Known Member
I meant lease the car for say 3 years and then give it back and lease a new one. I suspect the whole sustainability of electric cars is the next big debate if not already. I'd like to think they should fit in the EU regs for electrical equipment lasting minimum 10 years for spare parts and what not, but who knows! £40k every 10 years is unrealistic and who knows what the second hand market would be like if you can't replace batteries affordably and dispose of them friendly.
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