Should men describe themselves as feminists, if they are supportive of feminism?

[Johnny Vodka]

i don't know.

Fair enough.

 

[Pickman's model]

I doubt many on here would, particularly the latter. But are you changing your position? Maybe I had you wrong, but you appeared to be advocating the Swedish solution before.

that was then, this is now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i don't know.

That's fair enough. I genuinely think this is a hard question to answer.

 

[equationgirl]

Which already happens in many countries and will probably end up happening here. But why should sex be criminalised between consenting adults? Would you happily criminalise a woman who used a male sex worker or a disabled person (or their carer for procuring) a sex worker?

As already stated the exchange of money for sex is not illegal in Scotland. I would have to check if it's the same in the other parts of the UK.

Sex between consenting adults is not criminalised, either in the context if sex work or not. It's the activities around sex work as outlined above that are criminalised.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As already stated the exchange of money for sex is not illegal in Scotland. I would have to check if it's the same in the other parts of the UK.

Sex between consenting adults is not criminalised, either in the context if sex work or not. It's the activities around sex work as outlined above that are criminalised.

Where has JV said otherwise?

 

[Orang Utan]

That's fair enough. I genuinely think this is a hard question to answer.

it is. i don't think people with disabilities should necessarily have any special dispensation for procuring sexual services though - to do so would mean that sex IS a right. But I would need to think about it some more.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

it is. i don't think people with disabilities should necessarily have any special dispensation for procuring sexual services though - to do so would mean that sex IS a right. But I would need to think about it some more.

My position centres on harm-reduction. Some positives have come out of New Zealand's experience of legalisation (I've linked to this before - surveys of sex workers themselves saying that they feel safer now and more empowered, better able to say no to things they don't want to do), plus some worrying negatives surrounding trafficking. Legalisation plus very, very firm action on trafficking would be my preferred solution. It provides the best hope of real harm-reduction.

Problem with the Swedish model is that, if prostitution continues, which it has, it can lead the women involved to be even more marginalised and vulnerable. It's not the solution, imo, even setting aside the fact that I don't like the way it infantilises women. tbh I'm not that concerned about the morality of it - I hate the idea of buying sex, but it happens, and my hating it isn't going to stop it from happening, so another approach is needed.

 

[Orang Utan]

i don't understand what you mean by 'infantilising' women. Sounds depraved!

 

[Santino]

Do you mean value as in 'extremely enjoyable/desirable' or value as in 'religious'? To many people, sex is extremely enjoyable/desirable but also, if you're lucky, pretty routine. It's not necessarily something that has to be shared only with 'the one'. Sex is something which (arguably) too much importance can be attached to. In the age of contraception, it's entirely up to the individual how much importance they place on sex and the conditions they'll attach to it.

I mean it always has a special value attached to it, which can't be reduced to pleasure or religion or anything else. This is not a complex or controversial thesis, what's interesting is how people try to challenge or explain away a constant theme in human society.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i don't understand what you mean by 'infantilising' women.

A man buying sex from you is illegal. But you selling them sex is not illegal. The buyer is wrong, but the seller isn't. But that removes any possible agency from the seller - she must be being coerced and exploited by the buyer, no matter what she thinks of the situation. She's the victim of a crime, whether she thinks so or not.

Plus, clearly, if what you're doing is illegal, then we must conduct the transaction in secret - hence prostitution is immediately pushed underground by criminalising either party.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I mean it always has a special value attached to it, which can't be reduced to pleasure or religion or anything else. This is not a complex or controversial thesis, what's interesting is how people try to challenge or explain away a constant theme in human society.

It's not much of a thesis at all. You haven't said what that special value is, nor shown it to be universal.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I mean it always has a special value attached to it, which can't be reduced to pleasure or religion or anything else. This is not a complex or controversial thesis, what's interesting is how people try to challenge or explain away a constant theme in human society.

I kinda of get what you're saying... but sex can also be run of the mill or routine. People see sex in different ways and build different rules around it. I think 'historically' attaching much value to sex makes sense, especially for women and when/where contraception isn't/wasn't available - because of the obvious potential consequences. But where contraception is available it can be a lesser thing - had casually, for fun, to scratch an itch...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The easy availability of contraception does change the potential sets of meaning of sex very radically, I think.

 

[Santino]

It's not much of a thesis at all. You haven't said what that special value is, nor shown it to be universal.

I didn't say it always has the same special value. Clearly it doesn't. But it always has a special value of some kind.

 

[Orang Utan]

Anyway, put your hand up if you're a feminist.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I mean it always has a special value attached to it, which can't be reduced to pleasure or religion or anything else. This is not a complex or controversial thesis, what's interesting is how people try to challenge or explain away a constant theme in human society.

There are, errrrr, specialist clubs up and down the country seemingly where people quite happily view sex as nothing more than a social activity

 

[Orang Utan]

There are, errrrr, specialist clubs up and down the country seemingly where people quite happily view sex as nothing more than a social activity

I was in one in Camberwell the other day. It had some unusual fittings.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I was in one in Camberwell the other day. It had some unusual fittings.

Just happened to wander in, eh?

 

[Santino]

I kinda of get what you're saying... but sex can also be run of the mill or routine. People see sex in different ways and build different rules around it. I think 'historically' attaching much value to sex makes sense, especially for women and when/where contraception isn't/wasn't available - because of the obvious potential consequences. But where contraception is available it can be a lesser thing - had casually, for fun, to scratch an itch...

You're still not getting it.

The routine-ness or otherwise of sex doesn't diminish in the slightest from the special value that is placed on it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Just happened to wander in, eh?

'seemingly'?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

'seemingly'?

Apparently so

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're still not getting it.

The routine-ness or otherwise of sex doesn't diminish in the slightest from the special value that is placed on it.

Where does the attitude towards casual sex of many homosexual men fit in with this thesis?

I don't see the value in the argument, tbh.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

You're still not getting it.

The routine-ness or otherwise of sex doesn't diminish in the slightest from the special value that is placed on it.

I get it entirely. I sort of agree with you but sort of don't agree with you. There is no universal value attached to sex these days (if there ever was). A good steak or book could have 'special value', which doesn't actually mean anything until you describe what that value is.

 

[Santino]

I get it entirely. I sort of agree with you but sort of don't agree with you. There is no universal value attached to sex these days (if there ever was). A good steak or book could have 'special value', which doesn't actually mean anything until you describe what that value is.

sigh

 

[littlebabyjesus]

sigh

You sigh, but you've not really said anything.

 

[Santino]

Where does the attitude towards casual sex of many homosexual men fit in with this thesis?

I don't see the value in the argument, tbh.

It fits in as well as all the other millions of people who have enjoyed casual sex in providing absolutely no counter-example to the general thesis that sex occupies a special position in every human society.

 

[Orang Utan]

Just happened to wander in, eh?

I was at a rave

 

[andysays]

I mean it always has a special value attached to it, which can't be reduced to pleasure or religion or anything else. This is not a complex or controversial thesis, what's interesting is how people try to challenge or explain away a constant theme in human society.

This is a bit of an over-simplification, and I'm not sure it really stands up to proper examination.

I'd agree that it has widely had a special value attached to it, though you seem to be suggesting that this attached special value is somehow unique to sex and unless you expand on what you mean your assertion just comes across as simply that - an assertion without any real evidence or substance.

But in pretty much every human society we know about, this special value has also existed alongside women (mostly) being forced by circumstance (and maybe occasionally by choice) to exchange access to sex as a means of straightforward survival or (less frequently) attempt to gain some form of influence, so there has always been a conflict between the dominant supposed-special-value and the underlying reality for many people, particularly women.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It fits in as well as all the other millions of people who have enjoyed casual sex in providing absolutely no counter-example to the general thesis that sex occupies a special position in every human society.

From what I can tell, your thesis is both vague and useless in working out how to view sex work and the best approach a society should adopt towards it. As I said before, it's a deepity, at best. At worst, it is pious nonsense.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

there has always been a conflict between the dominant supposed-special-value and the underlying reality for many people, particularly women.

Yep. And a removal of such hypocrisy would be no bad thing at all, imo.