Sheridan abandons hope for the SSP and tries to form new party

[Fisher_Gate]

Officially. Long before that it had dissolved politically, remaining purely as a kind of leadership caucus. When divisions (personal, political, etc) began to open up within the ISM it couldn't even play that role.



This is false. The United Left initially declared itself a "network" rather than a "platform", in an attempt to portray itself as not being a faction. It was however formally recognised as a platform and as far as I know still is.

As to whether it is still trying to organise, I don't know. I'm not sure why it would now given that it doesn't have a politics different from those of the SSP leadership (it makes up that leadership) and that there aren't any other political currents or views to organise against.



Hardly significant I realise, but Solidarity also includes the people who were the Scottish supporters of the ISG.



True. The RCN, one of the two ultra-nationalist platforms is very small. The SRSM, the other one, is even tinier and is I'm told in the process of leaving anyway. Workers Unity, a grouping opposed to Scottish independence and calling for a British wide socialist party, has four members.

In your concern to put in a political comment on my (factual) statement, you seemed to have missed out the one that T. Sheridan was a founding member of the ISM and leader of the SSP, and therefore shared responsibility for all the things you criticise them for.

Presumably CWI believes that both he and the SWP have changed tack in following them into Solidarity ... if so, the CWI is going to have a rude awakening one day soon ...

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Fox WAS in the ISM though when he replaced Sheridan.

As was Sheridan.

The ISM had so much influence on the structure of the SSP because they were EMPLOYED as part of that structure.They were employed by the SSP as organisers,

Regional organisers are elected by all members in their region at the AGM. Yes a number were ISM tho

and so able to play an important part in selecting delegates to conferences.

Delegates are elected at branches, not selected by the regional organiser

At those conferences other ISM members were elected to positions in the SSP. Sounds like a monolithic internal structure to me.

The ISM could never be described as monolithic, in fact the major reason that they disbanded was that they didnt have an agreed political viewpoint, they were also hemorraging members, particularly women members, and even those who stayed in the platform were very inactive (within the platform that is - not the wider party).

 

[Nigel Irritable]

In your concern to put in a political comment on my (factual) statement,

Part of your statement was factual, part of it was factually incorrect.

you seemed to have missed out the one that T. Sheridan was a founding member of the ISM and leader of the SSP, and therefore shared responsibility for all the things you criticise them for.

I'm well aware of that. As are the International Socialists in Scotland. Which is why all of their statements on the whole issue have made it clear that they retain significant political differences with Sheridan.

Presumably CWI believes that both he and the SWP have changed tack in following them into Solidarity ... if so, the CWI is going to have a rude awakening one day soon ...

Why on earth would you presume any such thing? As far as I know Sheridan still holds to all (or at least most) of the nationalist and reformist ideas which the ISM had collapsed into some time ago. The SWP in Scotland as elsewhere remains an opportunist sect.

The reason the CWI defends Sheridan is one of basic solidarity with a socialist leader under attack by the Murdoch press and dealing with utter treachery from his own supposed friends and allies. The reason the CWI opposes the rump SSP/UL leadership is not that their abstract views on reformism or nationalism are vastly worse than those of Sheridan. It's that they are openly collaborating with the Murdoch press and the state to destroy Scotland's most prominent socialist leaders and see him jailed.

 

[sevenstars]

The reason the CWI defends Sheridan is one of basic solidarity with a socialist leader under attack by the Murdoch press and dealing with utter treachery from his own supposed friends and allies...openly collaborating with the Murdoch press and the state to destroy Scotland's most prominent socialist leaders and see him jailed.[/QUOTE]

So you think they should all go to jail themselves and bring down the entire party just to preserve the personal reputation of a liar and hypocrite, because he is a 'socialist leader'?

Can 'socialist leaders' never be held to account, are their comrades and parties just slaves to their whims and paronias? Haven't we seen all this before and dont some people ever learn?

Sheridan has played right into the hands of the Murdoch empire, he brought both them and the state into this. Its hard not to speculate on the shady motives of those who have encouraged him, and who has been behind them in this.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

So you think they should all go to jail themselves and bring down the entire party

No I don't think anyone should go to jail over all this.

As for the other part do you think that the SSP will ever recover from the spectacle, apparently wished for by many SSP figures, of Sheridan being tried and jailed for perjury primarily on the basis of evidence given by SSP leaders? Leave aside your almost inevitable knee-jerk response that this is all Sheridan's fault for a moment and think about the answer to that question objectively. Even from the perspective of a partisan of the SSP/UL, I can't see how the answer can be anything other than no.

 

[k84blogs]

Dunno if it's all good or not

Help me out: is the left on the rise, or not? Don't know whether to stir myself back into half-assed political action, or to continue to lie back in apathy. Can't call Galloway or the SWP lefties really, can we? He's an anti-abortionist who lives in a huge flash house. Same as George Bush really.

Have you seen this? http://www.hangbitch.com. I've been sent this a couple of times now. Can't tell if they're saying there's hope or there's not.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

No I don't think anyone should go to jail over all this.

As for the other part do you think that the SSP will ever recover from the spectacle, apparently wished for by many SSP figures, of Sheridan being tried and jailed for perjury primarily on the basis of evidence given by SSP leaders? Leave aside your almost inevitable knee-jerk response that this is all Sheridan's fault for a moment and think about the answer to that question objectively. Even from the perspective of a partisan of the SSP/UL, I can't see how the answer can be anything other than no.

Perfectly honestly, I have no time for corrupt politicians.

Sheridan attempted to extract money out of the NoTW on false pretenses and the SSP refused to assist him in this.

Had Sheridan decided to take the NoTW to court for libel, however aknowledge that he had indeed visited swingers clubs and had affairs just not under the circumstances that the NoTW described, then there would be no question of him being done for perjury on the basis of SSP members testimony.

You're right, its not a pretty sight and its not something that the majority of SSP members revel in, however over the course of the last few months its become clear that Sheridan is willing to sacrifice his comrades, his former lovers, his party and his principles...and for what? To try to maintain an illusion of bourgoise domestic bliss.

When this broke in Nov 04, I had a great deal of sympathy for Sheridan but little by little, with each egotistic spouting, each lie and each betrayal it has all now gone. Sheridan, once the voice of the Scottish left, is now a threat to socialist politics.

 

[sevenstars]

I think Sheridan getting the state involved by taking this to court was inevitably the road to disaster, thats why every effort was made to persuade him not to do it.

The jails are already overcrowded and I dont wish he adds to the numbers. The best response for the SSP is to move on from this now. A perjury trial wont help us do that but whether it happens or not is out of our hands, thats the whole problem with taking these things to the courts.

I do believe the SSP will survive this, though its a terrible setback. Theres still the same need for socialism as there ever was, and in terms of resources we are still in a better state than when we started out.

The future of 'Solidarity', which I see the SWP are now describing as a 'coalition', is far less certain though. And like most members of the SSP I'm not a partisan of the UL and was never an ISM member either, this is no factional dispute for us.

No I don't think anyone should go to jail over all this.

 

[Fullyplumped]

The future of 'Solidarity', which I see the SWP are now describing as a 'coalition'

I'd not heard that before! It sounds remarkably like "Respect-The-Unity-Coalition" and is reminiscent of the recently reported story that Mr Galloway has plans to stand against Solidarity if charges were laid against Mr Sheridan. It is possible to be a MP and a MSP at the same time, and the lucrative nature of such an arrangement would obviously appeal to what we know of his personality. He'd still need to get elected, though!

The Founding Statement of Solidarity definitely describes the new organisation as a new "party". If the SWP is now recanting from this and beginning to call it something else it is a rather significant move. Could someone post a link, please?

 

[sevenstars]

From this weeks SW http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9993 .

"The rally [in Glasgow] was supported by Solidarity, the new left coalition in Scotland"

And, surprise surprise...

"The best cheers of the day, however, went to Yvonne Ridley, the broadcaster and Respect activist, who gave a blistering speech attacking the imperialism of Bush and Blair and also passionately defending her faith".

 

[nwnm]

obviously using the word 'coalition' to describe solidarity is a sinister plot <to er.... build the widest possible movement posslble?>

Its the sort of word we use instead of 'party' to bamboozle the masses into supporting us, which is why the SW report of the RESPECT conference contained this sentence "An important focus for the conference was discussion of the party’s work around trade unions, introduced by Linda Smith"
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9950

Some people on here are pretty paranoid

 

[sevenstars]

Some people here seem to know little about the organisations they are either attacking or defending

The point is that Respect is called a party when bigging up its importance, and a coalition when questions are raised about democracy and accountability. You might not understand the difference, but George Galloway and the SWP does.

As do the vast majority of independent socialists outside Respect. If you think that model will work in Scotland..

 

[nwnm]

nope it was initially called a coalition as it needed to reflect the diversity of the anti war movement from whence it came. it is now <gradually> coalescing into a party. Judging by the piece from SW you helpfully posted for us Solidarity in Scotland may be showing signs of developing in a similar <but not identical> way. <It took quite some time for the Labour Representation Committtee to turn into the Labour Party didn't it? Parties aren't things you can declare at the drop of a hat IMO>

 

[sevenstars]

Once again, its hard to know where to start...

Your organisation calls itself the 'Socialist Workers Party'.
Its the main organisational force in the self named www.respectcoalition.org/, which only has slightly more than 2,000 members by its own records.

People can judge for themselves from this whether either organisation is going anywhere. If this is the proposed alternative to the SSP in Scotland its a real step backwards, no wonder 80% of the SSP members have stayed with us.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

.... <RESPECT> was initially called a coalition as it needed to reflect the diversity of the anti war movement from whence it came. it is now <gradually> coalescing into a party.

If you say so...

Judging by the piece from SW you helpfully posted for us Solidarity in Scotland may be showing signs of developing in a similar <but not identical> way.

No - it seems to be developing in exactly the opposite way, it was initially called a party to emphasise its internal unity in contrast to the divided SSP from when it came, it is now <gradually> breaking up into a coalition.

<It took quite some time for the Labour Representation Committtee to turn into the Labour Party didn't it? Parties aren't things you can declare at the drop of a hat IMO>

Did you think about telling Sheridan that when he decided to launch one after he took a hissy fit at not getting enough nominations for convenor?

 

[JHE]

...no wonder 80% of the SSP members have stayed with us.

If that's true, it hopeful news.

Source?

I don't know how many went one way or the other. I just got the general impression that the SSP had split roughly 50-50 and thought it likely that many had found it all very disillusioning and had dropped out.

 

[nwnm]

Once again, its hard to know where to start...

Your organisation calls itself the 'Socialist Workers Party'.
Its the main organisational force in the self named www.respectcoalition.org/, which only has slightly more than 2,000 members by its own records.

People can judge for themselves from this whether either organisation is going anywhere. If this is the proposed alternative to the SSP in Scotland its a real step backwards, no wonder 80% of the SSP members have stayed with us.

and what is the actual membership of the SSP right now? perhaps you missed this little bit on the website you flagged up
http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=1204
Your 80% is highly debatable. It looks as if the RMT are now 'considering their options' ie will be taking the ball away as far as the ssp go, probably due to the SSP's fondness for the NOW..... I hope this doesn't mean they end up donating money to the SNP or scottish greens instead.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

and what is the actual membership of the SSP right now? perhaps you missed this little bit on the website you flagged up
http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=1204

The organisation report to the Respect conference failed to mention the membership figure - it is 2,160, down from over 3,000 at last year's conference. The leadership committees had received reports telling them what the true membership figures were, but they were 'airbrushed', in true stalinist style, out of the report put before delegates.

If the SWP don't even have the confidence to put the truth before their own members in England, why should they be trusted in Scotland?

 

[nwnm]

If the SWP don't even have the confidence to put the truth before their own members in England, why should they be trusted in Scotland?

at least we still HAVE members in scotland <a bit life of brian I know - but I couldn't resist >

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

at least we still HAVE members in scotland <a bit life of brian I know - but I couldn't resist >

Just out of interest how many do you have?
Are you in double figures?

 

[nwnm]

I think you'll find a link somwhere in the thread containing details of a meeting where the socialist worker Platform in Scotland voted on a statement with regards to the split. That would give a rough idea. Can't be arsed looking for it myself though

 

[sevenstars]

I've seen a number like 140 mentioned for SW.

I also heard the 80% figure for staying in the SSP around the time of the conference, I don't have an online source for it though its mentioned in this report too election.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=811&id=1337112006 - 41k

From what I hear branches in Glasgow and Edinburgh have lost some members, otherwise the SSP remains strongest in the central belt and with the youth.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

I think you'll find a link somwhere in the thread containing details of a meeting where the socialist worker Platform in Scotland voted on a statement with regards to the split. That would give a rough idea. Can't be arsed looking for it myself though

Sorry - I thought you were CWI.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

at least we still HAVE members in scotland <a bit life of brian I know - but I couldn't resist >

Don't bother arguing with the substantive point will you ... you know its true.

How many members do you have in France, Denmark or Portugal by the way (very life of Brian ...)?

 

[Fullyplumped]

A plague on both your houses - RMT

The RMT is cutting all political links with the Scottish Socialist Party but has so far not decided to affiliate with Tommy Sheridan's new party/coalition/night-club.

Bob Crow said: "It is clear that there are elements within the SSP that have destabilised the organisation, that the atmosphere within it is no longer conducive to comradeship, and that it is no longer in our members' interests to remain affiliated."

 

[Nigel Irritable]

A plague on both your houses is a bit of a tendentious reading. According to posts elsewhere Crow has just been on the radio essentially siding with Sheridan. It's fairly obvious which way the union leadership's sympathies lie.

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are about to affiliate to Solidarity however. From an RMTs perspective, having got egg on their faces once, it may be tempting to take a wait and see approach until the dust settles.

 

[JHE]

According to posts elsewhere Crow has just been on the radio essentially siding with Sheridan. It's fairly obvious which way the union leadership's sympathies lie.

Really? You mean Crow thinks it was a good idea for Big Tommy to sue the News of the Screws, lie through his teeth, slander his comrades, split the SSP and face imprisonment for his perjury? Bloody hell! If that is what Crow thinks, the man's a fuckin' mug!

Alternatively, Nigel, your reading of Crow could be mistaken.

(Not having read Crow's comment, I can't say which it is - but it's one or the other.)

 

[Fullyplumped]

I couldn't help but notice the uncanny resemblance between noted trades unionist Bob Crow and the US waste disposal industry entrepreneur, Tony Soprano. Were they separated at birth? I think we should be told.

 

[sevenstars]

My understanding is that Bob Crow regards Tommy Sheridan as a friend of his, and although this decision is sad it was not unexpected and theres not much we can do about it at this stage.

I think there is as much chance of the RMT affiliating to the 'Solidarity' coalition as to 'Respect' though, given their similarities

 

[nwnm]

Don't bother arguing with the substantive point will you ?

But comrade, having members IS the substsntive point for any organisation, surely. No members, no organisation, no one to consistently argue your political perspective.