Sheridan abandons hope for the SSP and tries to form new party

[mutley]

A lot of your post is sensible, Greenman, but I disagree with parts.

I do wish people would stop suggesting that for the News of the Screws or its owners the story of Sheridan's sexploits was really about doing down a socialist politician.

You seem to accept that interpretation when you call it "...yet another example of the capitalist media being thrown more socialist red meat...".

It had bugger all to do with Sheridan being a socialist. They do it to Tories. They do it to Lib Dems. They do it to Labour Party people. They do it to footballers. They do it to TV celebs, pop stars, soap opera actors... you name it. They do it to anyone famous enough for their readers to have heard of them - and to a few others.

Yes of course they will do it to any fucker that they can make a buck out of destroying, but that's all the more reason not to ally urself with them, and they will relish doing it to any half-influential socialist all the more.

 

[urbanrevolt]

May be- and I certainly have reservations about the limitations of Sheridan's politics- his reformism, his sops to nationalism, his egotism etc which (possibly minus the egotism I wouldn't know) also apply to the ssp.

But I'm not so sure they don't especially target left leaders- look at how long it took for the stuff about Charles Kennedy to come out- tho' that may have been fear of libel i don't know and defintely look at the frame ups over Scargill in the late 80s early 90s.

But socialists should also criticise salacious stories about bourgeois politicians- not because we defend the bourgeois but because say the destruction of a bourgeois politician for being gay is an attack on all gay people.

Now- corruption, secret deals with business men- all fair game. But an affair, swinging, cottaging, asphyxiation rituals or whatever they come up with true or not is all 1) a diversion and 2) part of a bourgeois control of sexuality that on the one hand portrays women as commodified sex machines and on the other seeks to regulate the sexuality of us all to a pro-family norm.

Socialists should reject all this bourgeois morality and concentrate on politics- criticisng the limitations of both Solidairty and the SSP both and demand a fighting working class alternative

 

[junius]

What kind of fucking 'war' is this? One with Murdoch acting as the big guns in the side that you support?

I don't know what it's been like up there since both ssp and solidarity had their big bashes in early sept, but it seems to me that rather than carrying on a 'war' in which one side seems to be allied with the NOTW it would be better if both sides got on with some actual political activity, and in the near future we'll see who's getting somewhere on the ground. The longer this shit and any associated perjury cases drag on the worse the prospects for any socialist project.

What, with the Daily Record supporting Tommy, it's truly a sorry affair.

If Tommy had just ignored the original article, and the SSP leadership did likewise, none of this would have happened...perhaps.

Rubbish about state involvement disguises how the left is perfectly capable of fucking itself up. Le Carre couldn't have made this one up.

I suppose we'll all go to see the film. 'Impossible Dream' is the working title I bet.

 

[JHE]

But I'm not so sure they don't especially target left leaders -

Then you obviously don't read enough of the tittle-tattle to know!

You want to find a group that's been especially picked on by the sex-exposing papers? The bloody royal family!

 

[urbanrevolt]

You may be right!

 

[Fisher_Gate]

McNeilage didn't have to give the tape to the NotW though did he. I would have thought that if theres one thing all socialists should have learnt from this nightmare is not to use the bourgeois media to settle internal disputes.

McNeilage's aiding of Murdoch is just another nail in the coffin of socialist principles. Deeply depressing.

According to McNeilage he has released the tape to any media organisation that wants a copy, not just the NoTW, and, as far as I'm aware, he hasn't taken any money from its release, claiming his sole reason is that he just wants to clear the name of the SSP and its leaders.

I think the problem is that Sheridan crossed the moral line for a socialist when he lied to the court against that of his erstwhile comrades, in his own action that they had urged him not to do because he could only suceed by lying. That he then went on a destructive binge to accuse them of being 'scabs', while taking substantial payment from the media he attacks, compounded his situation and made his departure from the plane of left wing politics more certain.

McNeilage's release of the tapes has simply accelerated that departure and I neither condemn nor condone his entirely understandable situation and reaction.

Sheridan is now past history as far as serious socialist politics in Scotland is concerned. The tragedy is that so long as they continue to defend Sheridan, the SWP, CWI et al are likely to go down with him (metaphorically speaking of course).

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

But socialists should also criticise salacious stories about bourgeois politicians- not because we defend the bourgeois but because say the destruction of a bourgeois politician for being gay is an attack on all gay people.

But there is a difference between that and trying to hide something.

Hiding the fact that you are gay and covering it up, even to the point of taking it to a trial is an attack on gay people...implying that being gay is somekind of slur to be hidden at all costs.

 

[nwnm]

According to McNeilage he has released the tape to any media organisation that wants a copy, not just the NoTW, and, as far as I'm aware, he hasn't taken any money from its release, claiming his sole reason is that he just wants to clear the name of the SSP and its leaders..

Actually channel 4 news quoted a NoTW source saying they had paid him for it but refusing to disclose the sum..... They were obviously the only people prepared to pay him for it <they also now 'own' it - so he'll have to consult them about releasing it to anyone else. They have copywrite>

 

[nwnm]

You alienate more people than you 'take', with this sort of desperate nonsense.

Yeah right - impossible to take health workers, civil servants or single parents otnto anti war protests..... thats why there were loads of them in manchester.....

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Yeah right - impossible to take health workers, civil servants or single parents otnto anti war protests..... thats why there were loads of them in manchester.....

But they're not there because they are health workers, or civil servants or single parents, who have been "taken there"...they're there because they think the war in Iraq is a disgrace and want to see it ended.

 

[treelover]

this is what socialists should be doing, but apart from the Socialist party, they were remarkable by their absence.

 

[tollbar]

Actually channel 4 news quoted a NoTW source saying they had paid him for it but refusing to disclose the sum..... They were obviously the only people prepared to pay him for it <they also now 'own' it - so he'll have to consult them about releasing it to anyone else. They have copywrite>

The NOtW stated in the editorial that money had changed hands.

I suspect that given the outcome of the Sheridan case other outlets would have been cautious about publishing it anyway.

 

[justuname]

Actually channel 4 news quoted a NoTW source saying they had paid him for it but refusing to disclose the sum..... They were obviously the only people prepared to pay him for it <they also now 'own' it - so he'll have to consult them about releasing it to anyone else. They have copywrite>

Oh I see, so the hated 'Murdoch press' are suddenly to be believed over a life long socialist because that socialist isn't Tommy Sheridan.

According to reports in non-Murdoch papers today the tape is being handed into the police this morning. Of course, if it is NWNM won't say 'I was wrong about McNeilage doing this for money and giving copyright to the NOTW, I can see now that Tommy did lie and he should apologise for that' - Tommy's shrinking band of admirers don't do truth. They do their ex-mates. So expect instead rants about SSP members collaborating with the cops against a Scottish working class hero, crossing class lines, stand-by-our-man-whatever-or-you're-a-class-traitor...

I'm finding it truly illuminating the lengths people like the SWP will got to - the twists of logic, the women abused, the comrades grotesquely insulted, the lies knowingly denied, the instinctive urge for loyalty cruelly betrayed - to defend Tommy's self-serving, misogynist actions for their own factional advantage.

What Tommy did was tragic. What the people who know what's he's done and are still covering it up are doing is pathetic. And should be remembered.

 

[JoePolitix]

Oh I see, so the hated 'Murdoch press' are suddenly to be believed over a life long socialist because that socialist isn't Tommy Sheridan.

According to reports in non-Murdoch papers today the tape is being handed into the police this morning. Of course, if it is NWNM won't say 'I was wrong about McNeilage doing this for money and giving copyright to the NOTW,

The fact that today he has handed it over to the police, presumably a legal obligation, doesnt obscure the fact that he gave it to the NotW first and for personal profit. The NotW editorial makes it quite clear that McNeilage was paid for assistance. It reads "During Sheridan's successful defamation action much was made of newspapers paying sources for stories. In the case of the Sheridan tape such a transaction has occurred”. Has McNeilage issued a statement denying this? One is left wondering whether he was also endowed for the article he wrote for that rag or whether he chucked that nugget in for free.

Either way the facts are that McNeilage made a secret video recording of a private conservation with a socialist and sold it to the scab press for personal profit. Such antics are grotesque and will repel socialists and class conscious workers everywhere. Worse still it throws up a whole load of related questions – why has this information only come to light now rather than during the court case or at least its immediate aftermath? Is the marriage of convenience between the SSP/UL and the Murdoch press closer than people had previously imagined?

Now I'm not justifying any of what Tommy Sheriden has done but my point is that whilst the SSP justify allying with the Murdoch, this time with no element of compulsion, then afaic they forfeit any right to claim the moral high ground over the Sheridenites.

 

[greenman]

Is the marriage of convenience between the SSP/UL and the Murdoch press closer than people had previously imagined?

Now I'm not justifying any of what Tommy Sheriden has done but my point is that whilst the SSP justify allying with the Murdoch, this time with no element of compulsion, then afaic they forfeit any right to claim the moral high ground over the Sheridenites.

Whoa there pal!
What evidence do you have that this latest development is anything other than an individual's decision to have a go at TS? Are you saying that the SSP/UL are organisationally responsible for this bloke's action in making and releasing the video?
What evidence do you have that there is a "marriage of convenience" between the SSP and the Murdoch press?
What was that about people allowing hatred of individuals and their actions to blind themseves to the bigger picture?

 

[sevenstars]

Yeah right - impossible to take health workers, civil servants or single parents otnto anti war protests..... thats why there were loads of them in manchester.....

I think your confusing yourself and your own sect with the anti-war movement, which I'm involved in as much as you are. You dont have the copyright on it and cant abuse it to justify lying self-centred politicians for your own factional advantage either.

By the way, which of the above list are you? Just out of interest

 

[nwnm]

I think your confusing yourself and your own sect with the anti-war movement, which I'm involved in as much as you are. You dont have the copyright on it and cant abuse it to justify lying self-centred politicians for your own factional advantage either.

By the way, which of the above list are you? Just out of interest

you were arguing its impossible to take people from one campaign to another <and in so doing bring people closer politically>. You obviously aren't that involved if you don't try bringing people from other struggles on board the anti war movement. <healthworker btw, and have also taken striking civil servants from picket lines onto anti war protests a few days later>

 

[refugee]

Interesting tapes just released.

Be interesting if anyone will put their hands up.

 

[JoePolitix]

Whoa there pal!
What evidence do you have that this latest development is anything other than an individual's decision to have a go at TS? Are you saying that the SSP/UL are organisationally responsible for this bloke's action in making and releasing the video?
What evidence do you have that there is a "marriage of convenience" between the SSP and the Murdoch press?
What was that about people allowing hatred of individuals and their actions to blind themseves to the bigger picture?

I find it a little difficult to believe that the SSP leadership were unaware of the existence of the tape or McNeilage's article prior to it being published to be honest and at any rate I've yet to read a single SSPer to criticise McNeilage for his actions. From what I've read he's been overwhemlingly appauded for what he did, understandably for sure but the one thing socialists should have learnt from all this shit is that using the capitalist press as a means to fight internal disputes within the workers movement will blow up in your face. In the eyes of many this lastest stunt by McNeilage will bring the SSP into disrepute if they refuse to disasociate themselves from it.

 

[junius]

And using the capitalist courts seems certain to blow up in Tommy's face.

 

[JHE]

In the eyes of many this lastest stunt by McNeilage will bring the SSP into disrepute if they refuse to disasociate themselves from it.

Even if some SSPers agree with you that McN shouldn't have given the tape to the News of the Screws and say so (as you want them to), they will not be able entirely to disassociate themselves from the revelation of the recording. How could they? The fact is that the tape vindicates them and demonstrates even to you and others who have been pro-Sheridan that Sheridan has lied through his teeth.


There is one thing I'd like the SSPers to do: mention that they are not going to sue TS for defamation, despite the fact that he clearly has defamed them.


At the moment, I can't see any way that Tommy can escape prison for his perjury. Frankly, I think he deserves to go to prison. If Aitken & Archer deserved their sentences, Sheridan deserves the same.

 

[JoePolitix]

And using the capitalist courts seems certain to blow up in Tommy's face.

True, it was tactically disasterous.

I'm not opposed to using any means to strike back against the reactionaries though. But I do think its wrong to use the state or the capitalist press to attack fellow socialists - which both sides of the dispute have done.

Its so depressing because like many others in Engalnd I looked up to the Scottish left and the way it managed to unite around solid socialist ideas (unfortunately with a bit of nationalism tossed in) - that's all up in smoke now despite the fact that the actors on both sides have long and proud records of fighting for the class.

I guess this just underlines the fact that unless there is proper democracy and accountabilty on the left even the best class militants can lose the plot.

 

[JoePolitix]

Even if some SSPers agree with you that McN shouldn't have given the tape to the News of the Screws and say so (as you want them to), they will not be able entirely to disassociate themselves from the revelation of the recording. How could they? The fact is that the tape vindicates them and demonstrates even to you and others who have been pro-Sheridan that Sheridan has lied through his teeth.

I'm not suggesting anyone should disassociate themselves from the content on the recording (if indeed it is genuine) but disassocaite themselves from giving it to the most obnoxious, reactionary and powerful media corporation in the world, scoring them a huge propaganda victory in the process, when there were plenty of other less scabby options available to them.

 

[JHE]

I'm not suggesting anyone should disassociate themselves from the content on the recording (if indeed it is genuine) but disassocaite themselves from giving it to the most obnoxious, reactionary and powerful media corporation in the world, scoring them a huge propaganda victory in the process, when there were plenty of other less scabby options available to them.

Yes, I understand what you're saying - but really the fact that it came out via "the most obnoxious, reactionary and powerful media corporation in the world" rather than through some other outfit is now very much a minor side issue.

Just out of interest, do you really suspect that the recording is not genuine (or are you just trying to be hyper-scrupulous for the hell of it)?

 

[sevenstars]

you were arguing its impossible to take people from one campaign to another <and in so doing bring people closer politically>.
You obviously aren't that involved if you don't try bringing people from other struggles on board the anti war movement. <healthworker btw, and have also taken striking civil servants from picket lines onto anti war protests a few days later>

??? No I was arguing that your sect supported a lying, self interested politician in sabotoging a democratic socialist organisation that he otherwise has no political differences with. Interesting how you avoid this, you clearly dont understand either the people or the issues involved.

???And what do you base that last assertion on? As a healthworker and a single parent I feature twice on your rather patronising list. And I was at the demo with my kids, our union banner and a bunch of fellow reps!!

If we are both in favour of a broad and diverse anti-war movement I dont see why your dragging it into this dispute, even to the extent of invoking it as if its your own! Thats will certainly alienate people from it, but if you want to do that anyway you should go start another thread, as its got nothing to do with this one.

 

[urbanrevolt]

What interest is there in proving TS lied or not about his own private sex life? It's just amusement for the bourgeois and has the potential to destroy the credibility of the SSP.

Admittedly TS seems to have caused an incredible amount of bitterness and his pursuit of the court case was unwise but why the fuck did SSP members bother to testify- I know they were called to but it's not hard to work out how they could for example genuinely not remember what he said at a meeting or whatever.

Seriously would anyone on this list testify to a bourgeois court about what a comrade of a workers' organisation said or didn't say about his or her own private life if you genbuinely couldn;t rember very well. Not hard.

And fuck who cares if he lied and who are we to say he did however likely we think it is.

I know he's probably been a bit of a shit over other things but don't gang up with the scum Murdoch press.

Forget TS and all that nonsense and get on with w'class politics. I suggest rankl and file members of SSP and Solidairty have an emergency conference, warn their leaders to drop this nonsense and get on with the class struggle.

 

[JHE]

Latest news: The Crown Office has announced that it is launching a criminal investigation into perjury.

 

[treelover]

read, one controlled by us!

If we are both in favour of a broad and diverse anti-war movement I dont see why your dragging it into this dispute, even to the extent of invoking it as if its your own!

 

[JHE]

BBC: Perjury probe over Sheridan trial

 

[sevenstars]

read, one controlled by us!

Whose us?

And I wouldnt care whether or not anyone lied about there own private life if thats all there was to it. Sheridan also took it court and demanded that others collude with him, risking jail for something as trivial as his personal reputation.

And when they wouldnt he lied and humiliated them in court and in the press, made himself a tidy sum and then split our party! So I'm not tolerating sectarians down here spinning this as anything other than what it is.