sevenstars
citizen army
nwnm said:
No, they wouldnt try splitting the most successful socialist party on this isles for years either, would they?
And if they did try, no principled socialist would assist them, would they?
Sheridan abandons hope for the SSP and tries to form new party
- Thread starter Fullyplumped
- Start date
No, they wouldnt try splitting the most successful socialist party on this isles for years either, would they?
And if they did try, no principled socialist would assist them, would they?
sevenstars
citizen army
nwnm said:
He 'fucked off' to SA to support homeless constituents, something most socialists would also support, would they not?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
I think the SWP and Respect are unused to the idea of having constituents, and needing to be seen to take an interest!sevenstars said:
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Quite - so why criticise Mr Fox, other than that you have a sectarian motive for doing so - this month - when six months ago or whatever you and other SWP operatives would presumably have been lauding him for his devotion to duty?nwnm said:
My apologies in advance if I have mischaracterised you and you were saying things like this six months ago.
Fullyplumped said:
our criticisms of the SSP would have been fairly similar 6 months ago. i.e. not concentrating on the anti war movement as THE issue around which to organise and to build a credible alternative to new labour. Everything else - hospital cuts, job cuts in the civil service etc can be seen through the prism of war and its financial burden; not just by us but by joe public, <I'm typing this on the day the Sunday Mail has a front page describing Afghanistan as 'Britain's Vietnam' btw>.
Our criticism would also have been that elements within the SSP were more pre-occupied with tailing scottish nationalism with the Independence Convention. <This is not to say that we are against independence - but that in terms of the interests of socialists it should be way down on the list of priorities>
That is what was disappointing about Colin Fox going to SA rather than speak at the anti war demo, and why compared to this solidarity seem to be passing the test at the moment in terms of the anti war movement
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Are you aware that the SSP is a political party with pretensions to operate at the national level in Scotland, with constituents for whom homelessness is more than a passing issue?nwnm said:
and are you aware that the more money that gets thrown into a bottomless pit called the war chest by the UK government, the less will be done for the homeless, the greater the cuts in the NHS, the more job losses in the civil service, the greater the knock on effect in the private sector, the more homelessness as people get their homes repo'd by greedy mortgage companies. The anti war movement in the US in the 1960's had a slogan they used whenever there was a domestic crisis to lobby politicians "Its the war stupid!" we need to do more of that here...
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
nwnm said:
Fucks sakes!
So do we stop our campaign for free school meals and tell people that it will resume as soon as the war is over? Do we let our hospitals be shut down waiting for the end of the war so that we can start campaigning on it again? Do we not bother about public sector pensions and tell them to campaign against the war so that there is enough money to pay them?
Dont be bloody daft.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
phildwyer said:
How about Sheridan's treatment of Katrine Trolle in court?
Was she just someone who was expendable for your greater cause?
Fucking shameful.
q_w_e_r_t_y said:
no but we make the links - we take people from one campaign into another. We tell people where the money is going and why we need to stop the bloody war. Actually this was pretty bloody easy with the pensions issue. It was quite easy to get mobbed by people wanting to sign petitions/get badges/stickers/posters with the slogan 'Fund Pensions not War!' on them
JoePolitix
Gone
I couldn’t care less whether this tape is genuine or fake. About a month ago I reconsidered my position on this whole sorry affair and came to the conclusion that my initial joy that the NotW vermin got a well deserved kicking (though in a just world it would have been a much much worse) clouded my judgement on the disgraceful way in which Tommy Sheriden betrayed his SSP comrades for his own ego and denounced them as “scabs” in the scummy Daily Record.
But frankly the conduct of McNeilage is equally disgraceful - actively aiding and abetting the NotW vermin in its campaign to destroy a socialist – this is one individual who actually does deserve to be labeled a scab. No matter what one thinks of TS I cant see how any socialist could be happy over this disgraceful article. This porno scab rag, that has dodged billions of £ in taxation, having the audacity to label TS “sleazy” or to call him “the biggest liar in politics” when these gutter slipe scum cheered on Tony Blair’s war lies that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent people murdered. The article turned my stomach.
I can understand why a New Labour apparatchik like Fully Plumped wouldn’t have any trouble with colluding with Murdock given that his party has jumped into bed with his scab empire, but I would have thought that a socialist like Fishers Gate would condemn such actions. Failing to do so means you have no moral highground of the Sheridenites afaic.
But frankly the conduct of McNeilage is equally disgraceful - actively aiding and abetting the NotW vermin in its campaign to destroy a socialist – this is one individual who actually does deserve to be labeled a scab. No matter what one thinks of TS I cant see how any socialist could be happy over this disgraceful article. This porno scab rag, that has dodged billions of £ in taxation, having the audacity to label TS “sleazy” or to call him “the biggest liar in politics” when these gutter slipe scum cheered on Tony Blair’s war lies that resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocent people murdered. The article turned my stomach.
I can understand why a New Labour apparatchik like Fully Plumped wouldn’t have any trouble with colluding with Murdock given that his party has jumped into bed with his scab empire, but I would have thought that a socialist like Fishers Gate would condemn such actions. Failing to do so means you have no moral highground of the Sheridenites afaic.
q_w_e_r_t_y
You see an investment scam and I see divinity
JoePolitix said:
I think you are labouring under the illusion that Sheridan is a socialist.
On the contrary he has smeared the leadership of the main socialist movement in Scotland, split the party, trousered £30K from a fluffy photoshoot in a tabloid, ignored labour laws in his attempt to sack parliamentary workers, employed scab labour, and attempted to destroy the SSP by threatening legal action to recover donations from the workers wage - which was a condition of being allowed to stand for the SSP.
In May Sheridan announced that you were either with him or with the NoTW. At the time I thought that was over simplistic, but eventually that is what it has come down to - who is the bigger piece of shit - Sheridan or Murdoch and it looks like Murdoch has finally met his match in the shittiness stakes.
JoePolitix
Gone
junius said:
McNeilage didn't have to give the tape to the NotW though did he. I would have thought that if theres one thing all socialists should have learnt from this nightmare is not to use the bourgeois media to settle internal disputes.
McNeilage's aiding of Murdoch is just another nail in the coffin of socialist principles. Deeply depressing.
JoePolitix
Gone
q_w_e_r_t_y said:
As I said, I think Tommy's conduct has been disgraceful, I'm not sure of the accuracy of some of your above accusations though. My point is that why did McNeilage go to NotW? He could have given the tape to the police or posted it up on the SSP website or whatever - why help the NotW vermin? It just looks like he wanted to pocket some cash.
The last line of your post is rubbish though, introverted and completely divorsed from reality.
The fact that co-operating with Murdoch rags or bourgeois courts is despicable doesn't alter the fact that if this latest development leads to perjury prosecutions it is the originator of this whole fiasco who will finally be the main victim, rather than the socialist movement in Scotland or his former comrades, which has been the case up to now. Sheridan had ample opportunities to deal with this in a socialist manner - i.e. refuse to comment, refuse to rely on the bourgeois courts, condemn media intrusion and say people's sexual lives are their own affair. Instead he reacted with outrage (so validating the very moralistic prurience that the NOTW engages in) and ran to the courts against the advice of his party comrades, dragging his whole party into conflict and division. I don't see anyone celebrating yet another example of the capitalist media being thrown more socialist red meat, just the resigned and weary "told you so" that we could all see coming unless we were completely brainwashed cadre of certain sects we could mention.........
The sooner the Scottish left can put the whole thing behind them and concentrate on real political issues, the better. It is a strange type of socialist who puts his own personal pride before the interests of party or class, maybe one whose own inflated self-importance leads him to believe that these interests are identical.
The left will always be under attack from the capitalist media. The point is to treat it with the contempt it deserves, not run to the courts implying that you share their hypocritical moralistic agenda and give them the circus of distraction from real political questions that they thrive on.
The sooner the Scottish left can put the whole thing behind them and concentrate on real political issues, the better. It is a strange type of socialist who puts his own personal pride before the interests of party or class, maybe one whose own inflated self-importance leads him to believe that these interests are identical.
The left will always be under attack from the capitalist media. The point is to treat it with the contempt it deserves, not run to the courts implying that you share their hypocritical moralistic agenda and give them the circus of distraction from real political questions that they thrive on.
sevenstars
citizen army
nwnm said:
You alienate more people than you 'take', with this sort of desperate nonsense.
If you are saying that your organisation lied and aided Sheridan while he rubbished the reputation of his friends and comrades, humiliated his ex-lover, and sabotaged our party because it had a different emphasis on the anti-war movement, you do a huge disservice to the anti-war movement. Most people involved in that have some sort of principles.
And Colin Fox has never grovelled in Saddam Husseins presence nor cashed in on BB, never mind lie like Sheridan. Its a desperate comparison.
urbanrevolt
New Member
There are some good points in greenman's post: the point about there being an egotistical rather than principled way in which Sheridan dealt with this; the need to get away from the personality politics of a 'great leader'; the implied idea that the best way forward would be for solidairty and the ssp activists to cooperate in the class struggle; the idea that the boss class will try to fit up working class leaders and certainly use any controversial aspects of their personal life.
However, that is no reason whatsoever to give up on the principle of an individual's private life being their own- what if the person concerned was gay or in some other way a member of an oppressed social group? There may well be egotistical ways in which TS has gone about this case; his pursuit of the court case may well have been unwise given the almost certain destruction of the SSP (certainly as a unified force) but the lesson has to be that socialists do not compromise on these issues, that if possible they refuse to testify or, if not able to do so legally, then do so in a way that does least harm- such as for example if someone genuinely couldn't remember the details.
Even now I think the activists of the SSP and Solidarity should both demand of their leaders to stop pursuing this media diversion and concentrate on working class politics- against the imperialist war on Iraq, against the racist immigration controls and deportations, against cuts and privatisation and commit to building a working class socialist, international and revolutionary movement and a unified revolutionary party to overthrow the real criminals- Bush, Blair, Brown and the whole rotten lot.
However, that is no reason whatsoever to give up on the principle of an individual's private life being their own- what if the person concerned was gay or in some other way a member of an oppressed social group? There may well be egotistical ways in which TS has gone about this case; his pursuit of the court case may well have been unwise given the almost certain destruction of the SSP (certainly as a unified force) but the lesson has to be that socialists do not compromise on these issues, that if possible they refuse to testify or, if not able to do so legally, then do so in a way that does least harm- such as for example if someone genuinely couldn't remember the details.
Even now I think the activists of the SSP and Solidarity should both demand of their leaders to stop pursuing this media diversion and concentrate on working class politics- against the imperialist war on Iraq, against the racist immigration controls and deportations, against cuts and privatisation and commit to building a working class socialist, international and revolutionary movement and a unified revolutionary party to overthrow the real criminals- Bush, Blair, Brown and the whole rotten lot.
urbanrevolt
New Member
Why, thank you- not online as yet I fear but available from your local friendly Permanent Revolution seller
junius said:
What kind of fucking 'war' is this? One with Murdoch acting as the big guns in the side that you support?
I don't know what it's been like up there since both ssp and solidarity had their big bashes in early sept, but it seems to me that rather than carrying on a 'war' in which one side seems to be allied with the NOTW it would be better if both sides got on with some actual political activity, and in the near future we'll see who's getting somewhere on the ground. The longer this shit and any associated perjury cases drag on the worse the prospects for any socialist project.
JHE
.
Media studies
A lot of your post is sensible, Greenman, but I disagree with parts.
I do wish people would stop suggesting that for the News of the Screws or its owners the story of Sheridan's sexploits was really about doing down a socialist politician.
You seem to accept that interpretation when you call it "...yet another example of the capitalist media being thrown more socialist red meat...".
It had bugger all to do with Sheridan being a socialist. They do it to Tories. They do it to Lib Dems. They do it to Labour Party people. They do it to footballers. They do it to TV celebs, pop stars, soap opera actors... you name it. They do it to anyone famous enough for their readers to have heard of them - and to a few others.
A lot of your post is sensible, Greenman, but I disagree with parts.
I do wish people would stop suggesting that for the News of the Screws or its owners the story of Sheridan's sexploits was really about doing down a socialist politician.
You seem to accept that interpretation when you call it "...yet another example of the capitalist media being thrown more socialist red meat...".
It had bugger all to do with Sheridan being a socialist. They do it to Tories. They do it to Lib Dems. They do it to Labour Party people. They do it to footballers. They do it to TV celebs, pop stars, soap opera actors... you name it. They do it to anyone famous enough for their readers to have heard of them - and to a few others.
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