Secular Buddhism

[Brainaddict]

I think that’s a common conception, but it hasn’t been my experience in what I’ve read and listened to. Humans as a social animal has been very much emphasised, to the extent of saying that the point of mindfulness is to interact better. To connect better. To listen better.

Similarly, the idea of non-self or not-self isn’t about dissolving the self. It suffers from translation problems. The point isn’t that you don’t have personhood, but that you aren’t an isolated being: you’re interconnected with everyone and everything else. Who you are now is the result of innumerable causes and conditions. That, and that everything changes and nothing is permanent. Our place in the world is like that. That’s the sort of thing that is meant by ‘anatta’, the word we’re translating as “non self”.

There’s a lot of discussion of just those points: interconnectedness and impermanence in the stuff I’ve put in the OP.

Fair enough, I've never delved that deeply in Buddhism myself, partly because I think the Four Noble Truths aren't true, so that's off-putting. But I've also sometimes struggled with the apparent egotism of self-declared Buddhist practictioners I've met. It felt like their idea of self development was very much about them selves as individuals, and their toxically self-absorbed native culture (UKian or USian) seemed to encourage them to be impressed with themselves for what small changes they had achieved. Not a universal problem - I've met some nice Buddhists too - but common enough, and contradictory enough, to be notable.

Edit: I'm interested in tools like particular types of meditation or frames of thought that Buddhism can offer, but think the translation between cultures has not always gone well.

 

[8ball]

How is the meditating going, peeps?

(I'm going through a phase of observing the river of thoughts as carrying a series of placards floating past saying "you are wasting your time")

 

[danny la rouge]

How is the meditating going, peeps?

(I'm going through a phase of observing the river of thoughts as carrying a series of placards floating past saying "you are wasting your time")

Yeah, irritability, impatience, restlessness are all part of the story: the Doing Mind’s defence against the Being Mind taking charge. The trick is not to push against it, just notice and obverse, then gently return to watching the breath, or scanning the body or whatever.


He said like the seasoned pro he isn’t.

I like Robert Wright's description of how to meditate (in why Buddhism is True). It’s something like: 1. Concentrate on your breath. 2. (This step is the easiest) Fail to concentrate for very long.

 

[JimW]

At least it's not some Daoist malarkey involving internal ejaculation.

 

[Threshers_Flail]

How is the meditating going, peeps?

(I'm going through a phase of observing the river of thoughts as carrying a series of placards floating past saying "you are wasting your time")

On a 4 day streak.

I'd benefit hugely if I could make this a daily habit - so frustrating that I always find myself skipping it after a few days, which obvs turn into a few weeks.

 

[8ball]

On a 4 day streak.

I'd benefit hugely if I could make this a daily habit - so frustrating that I always find myself skipping it after a few days, which obvs turn into a few weeks.

Yeah, even a teeny bit and I get a huge amount (relatively speaking) of internal control of those internal reactions and then I rapidly let it slip.

There must be advice on this bit somewhere.

 

[wayward bob]

posting before i've actually read the thread, but shinzen young had a big impact on me at a formative age (i imagine he's prolly been called out for typically guru-y abusive behaviours since i last looked into him, no endorsement implied... )

 

[wayward bob]

What kind of pizza do you normally order?

was the answer you were looking for "make me one with everything"?

 

[wayward bob]

again, skipping to the end, i'm getting the point of nothing a lot more these days. the comfort in it. i see beginning a meditation practice as starting the process of undoing the strictures of "avoiding nothingness" that keep us moving most of the time.

i guess once i get past the "seeking nothingness" there'll be something else to work on

 

[8ball]

i guess once i get past the "seeking nothingness" there'll be something else to work on

Nope, just more nothing all the way down, eventually ending up at a sign saying "beware of the leopard".

 

[wayward bob]

Nope, just more nothing all the way down, eventually ending up at a sign saying "beware of the leopard".

but the *seeking* is a problem, it's an attachment. once i stop giving a shit about the nothing i shall ascend to a higher plane

eta: i think it's common to go into meditation practice with the expectation that it will help or allow one to clear one's mind. which gets in the way more than anything. it's the being aware of/okay with the clouded mind that's the first step.

 

[wayward bob]

Nope, just more nothing all the way down, eventually ending up at a sign saying "beware of the leopard".

(btw, i know hitchhiker from the radio series played on a loop from age 6, i can still hear every inflection of "the lights had probably gone" "so had the stairs" )

 

[wayward bob]

I think its impressive how some Buddhist insights match up quite nicely with quantum physics/a view of the universe as a vibrating energy field etc.

yes, wave-partical duality slotted in so perfectly i was hooked

 

[8ball]

yes, wave-partical duality slotted in so perfectly i was hooked

<is tempted to page beesonthewhatnow at this point>

 

[wayward bob]

Rookie question - does anyone here have any precautions on the potential negative effects of some of the techniques being discussed here?

one of my teachers tells a story of how he dislocated his neck during a monastic retreat. (whatever discomfort comes you can sit with it... ) i like to believe that's a function of being an a-type personality/western male

i find group dynamics way too powerful/intrusive to attempt a retreat. i always resented the way my yoga teacher insisted on reaching into my soul in public

 

[8ball]

one of my teachers tells a story of how he dislocated his neck during a monastic retreat. (whatever discomfort comes you can sit with it... ) i like to believe that's a function of being an a-type personality/western male

i find group dynamics way too powerful/intrusive to attempt a retreat. i always resented the way my yoga teacher insisted on reaching into my soul in public

<nods, smiles, doesn't understand a word>

 

[wayward bob]

i appreciate i'm talking on tangents, but if there's anything specific you'd like me to try to explain...

 

[8ball]

i appreciate i'm talking on tangents, but if there's anything specific you'd like me to try to explain...

Just couldn't figure out why a type-a Western male would break their neck doing yoga (most likely a failure of imagination on my part).
And the stuff about group dynamics flew about 30ft over my head... as did the soul stuff tbf.

 

[wayward bob]

Just couldn't figure out why a type-a Western male would break their neck doing yoga (most likely a failure of imagination on my part).
And the stuff about group dynamics flew about 30ft over my head... as did the soul stuff tbf.

okay point 1 - there's a clearly stated aim (eta: and social and personal pressure to comply). the aim is to sit in complete silence and stillness for a certain amount of time, hours, usually. (this is meditation, not yoga, just sitting). commitment to achieving the aim overrides messages from the body saying this isn't working for me. there's an aim in the posture too, one that again overrides natural signals of discomfort. the *will* to override the discomfort (as, for e.g in a type-a personality) wins out and the "slight discomfort" turns out to be physically rather damaging. this also happens psychologically.

point 2- if you're blissfully unaware of group dynamics i salute you. i found that getting smacked down repeatedly for (unknowingly) going against it brought it further forward in my consciousness

my yoga teacher wanted to free me from the psychological strictures she observed in me. i wanted to do some stretching and learn how to relax. i moved to the back of the class and stopped letting her catch my eye, which helped. i did some more "intensive" weekend classes that were really beneficial, but also made me vulnerable in a way i found deeply intrusive. i wanted someone to work with on a purely superficial level at that point in time.

if there's no-one willing and able to put me back together at the end i'm not risking it.

hth

 

[8ball]

Thanks - probably understand enough to get a jammy 2:2 on what you were talking about now.

I'm pretty sure I've always had group dynamics problems (are we talking about emergent NT herd instinct phenomena?).

 

[Yu_Gi_Oh]

I was meditating in my office last week, watching the thoughts arise, and not connecting to them, as we try to do.

"Don't you have class at lunch time on a Tuesday?"
*don't connect to the thought*
"Don't you though?"
*Observe the thought, and let it fall away*
"Pretty sure you're going to miss your class"
*Breathe in... Breathe out...*
"You so have class in a minute"

Fuck.

It's amazing though, because the first 20 mins of my meditation, all my thoughts which arose were bullshit irritations about people making noises in the corridor, and my petty dislike of a colleague, and other minor anxieties, and it took me that long to effectively rinse all that nonsense out of my brain before I got to the important thought, which is that I had a class during lunch time. My brain is full of such shit, and I guess that's the most amazing thing mindfulness meditation teaches me.

 

[wayward bob]

jesus christ i talk a lot of shit when i'm drunk moar meditation less merlot ftw

 

[phillm]

You might find the teachings of Ajarn Brahm useful - I've met him he's a lovely man who follows the path and has a very insightful and down to earth approach in his teachings. Good luck with your journey.

Ajahn Brahm - Wikipedia

 

[8ball]

The local Buddhists in my area had a sex scandal some years back (quite a few years) that I don’t think they’ve really recovered from.

They seem very decent. They took in a mate of mine at their Centre when he was made homeless. No ramming religion into him, either.

They all have something I can only call “vicar like” about them.

 

[phillm]

The local Buddhists in my area had a sex scandal some years back (quite a few years) that I don’t think they’ve really recovered from.

They seem very decent. They took in a mate of mine at their Centre when he was made homeless. No ramming religion into him, either.

They all have something I can only call “vicar like” about them.

It may have been these guys they are pretty cult like.

Triratna Buddhist Community - Wikipedia

 

[8ball]

It may have been these guys they are pretty cult like.

Triratna Buddhist Community - Wikipedia

That’s them. They don’t seem cult-like in my limited experience (obv stuff can come along later). They do a great vegan curry (irrelevant, I know).

Would you say they are people to be careful about?

 

[greenfield]

Triratna used to be called Friends Of The Western Buddhist Order. Their founder, Denis Lingwood, who they call Sangharakshita, had some deeply weird sexist views and sexually abused a young man in the early days of the group.

 

[phillm]

That’s them. They don’t seem cult-like in my limited experience (obv stuff can come along later). They do a great vegan curry (irrelevant, I know).

Would you say they are people to be careful about?

From what I've heard once you are lured in then it's a full-time life in the community with a lot of demands on your time - though that is hearsay I'm sure it has many good folks amongst their numbers. Probably reformed a lot since the sexual scandals of its founder they run the Buddha field festival.

Buddhafield | Buddhism, Meditation and Community

The real uber cult who want your money and your life are the Dhammakaya movement. Which is leader based perversion of Buddhism originating in Thailand - they have Nazi like mass rallies in a huge temple outside of Bangkok. They have a temple in Brookwood and Norbury I think as well as Manchester and many other places around the world,

Dhammakaya Movement - Wikipedia



The purest movement and non-pushy with good people is the followers of Ajarn Chah - The Forest Movement who took Buddhism back to it's basics. It's best-known temple is Amaravati just outside of Hemel Hempstead where they have an active retreat programme on a pay what you can basis.

Home - Forest Sangha

Home » Amaravati Buddhist Monastery

 

[Brainaddict]

Yeah, I've done a bit of research on Triratna because a couple of friends have been in it. I don't really like the way they hook people in on innocent mindfulness/meditation courses, then pull them in to the full-on religious order element. Some things seem a bit deliberate, like discouraging drinking and smartphone use is likely to start distancing you from your old friends so you become more reliant on the community. It does take over a lot of people's lives, and you can live with other order members in shared houses etc. They aren't very good at dealing with bad behaviour among order members, and there was definitely a cult of personality around Dennis Lingwood, who frankly comes across as some sort of sex addict who abused his position. Having said all that, I think his decline and death has improved the order, and there isn't a replacement personality to create a cult around. His image is still in their shrines but a lot of newer members are much less influenced by him. There do seem to be some good people involved and some people have a good experience of it.

I believe they are considered odd in a theological/practice sense by many other Buddhists because Lingwood disliked Vipassana so that's entirely missing from their practice.

 

[danny la rouge]

That’s them. They don’t seem cult-like in my limited experience (obv stuff can come along later). They do a great vegan curry (irrelevant, I know).

Would you say they are people to be careful about?

Stephen Batchelor has warned about several aspects of the FWBO, which he called a "potentially totalitarian system". He says: "They operate as a self-enclosed system and their writings have the predictability of those who believe they have all the answers. They are structured in a rigid hierarchy and do not seem to question the teachings of their leader. As with many new religious movements, their enthusiasm and unconventional convictions have the potential to lead to problems associated with 'cults' and one centre in the eighties does appear to have tipped over into full-blown cultish behaviour, which, to the FWBO's credit, they closed down."

Batchelor finds Sangharakshita's views on heterosexual relationships "bizarre" and his views on women "distasteful".

(From Madeleine Bunting, "The dark side of enlightenment", the Guardian, October 27, 1997).