littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You should meet a certain Welsh poster called Trampie, CC. I reckon you'd get on. 
Scottish independence - as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?
- Thread starter ca-nami
- Start date
You should go to a combat 18 meeting, you'd probably fit in.
Frankie Jack
Not a bloke..
Forget the question I asked. M'off to the bandwidth thread.
gosub
~#
Adds an air of autheticity, cybernats are omnipresent. Ed should be flattered
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Well, this has been nice.
We're arranging a fight at the border via pm if you want in
He is one factor out of many.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Pm rather than conversation?
We're also hiring a plane to fly over London with insulting messages tied to the back of it
andysays
Love and solidarity
There was something else earlier which struck me a bit odd from someone who's only been here a week. Can't now remember what it was
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Some people are just stuck in the past and resistant to change.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Long time to go till the actual vote, little bit of movement in the opinion polls, it seems to me the yes campaign is working hard but the no has not yet got going. Will be interesting to see what the no camp comes out with. And whether Darling remains in charge of it for long.
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
South Sudan?
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
the parallels with Scotland are frightening there, by the way.
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
You phrased the question, not me. "what country in history has not "benefitted from independence", really? " There's actually quite a long list of countries where things have got worse after independence, in terms of standard of living, life expectancy, gdp, etc (North Korea, East Timor, Central African Republic, South Yemen...)
steeplejack
trapped lbw for a duck
sorry, I was giving people credit for having the intelligence to realise that a wide range of completely non-comparable examples from other continents would not actually be relevant.
clearly I gave you far too much credit, for one.
clearly I gave you far too much credit, for one.
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
Ah right, so when you talked about other countries in history you actually meant purely the ones that you think are comparable, and from Europe. Any other factors you'd like to chuck in? Maybe specific to this century as well?
In short, you shouldn't make a sweeping statement that independence is a universal success, and then try to claim you actually meant only for a very specific set of factors. If you should make such a mistake, it really doesn't help your cause much to blame it on the intelligence (or lack thereof) of others.
In short, you shouldn't make a sweeping statement that independence is a universal success, and then try to claim you actually meant only for a very specific set of factors. If you should make such a mistake, it really doesn't help your cause much to blame it on the intelligence (or lack thereof) of others.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Disclaimer, I don't understand how this works but the link below gives you the onshore and offshore figures, tables 9 and 10. If the link doesn't take you straight to page 10 then that is the page you want to look at. Onshore ct seems to be 7.7 % but offshore it's 80+%.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/receipts/disagg-method.pdf
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Wiki- but my underline
The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.[1][2] It states that nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or interference[3] which can be traced back to the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter.[4]
Btw, Scotland IS a country, regardless of the bullshit Blair did. It has a long history of being a country. It has its own banks and legal system which are still in place and take precedence over UK in Scotland. It still has its own education system and health service.
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
Going through those stats, combining the figures for on and offshore Corporation Tax, that makes Scotland 16.8% of the total.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Wiki- but my underline
The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.[1][2] It states that nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or interference[3] which can be traced back to the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter.[4]
Btw, Scotland IS a country, regardless of the bullshit Blair did. It has a long history of being a country. It has its own banks and legal system which are still in place and take precedence over UK in Scotland. It still has its own education system and health service.
Ok, but then we have the question 'what is a nation?' Who decides which groups of people are nations with the right to self-determination and which are not? This stuff is inevitably disputed territory.
Spain is a good example of the disputed nature of the nation. The inheritors of Francoist nationalism will state that there is one nation, Spain, whole and indivisible. That is a point of faith for them, and the current Spanish constitution, a work of compromise drawn up after Franco's death, recognises only one nation. Many - most - Catalans would disagree, but Spanish law does not recognise Catalunya as a nation, and there is no international law that can overrule Spanish law on this point.
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geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Historically Scotland is a nation, the people were en mass against the Union, they were sold out by their 'nobles'. I can't speak for everyone who lives here but I have never felt British and very few people I have met in nearly 50 years have felt British. Sas is possibly one of about 10 people I know who do(one of the others is NI). Obviously this may be influenced by the fact I live in NE but I have friends all over the country, you only have to look at plentiful maps on wiki to see we vote differently to further south/central belt, but even that is changing. Look at Holyrood election results on wiki.
Would you say the welsh are not a nation too? Just wondering.
What has this got to do with the post you're replying to?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
only sequentially...
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yep, Wales is a nation too. I suppose one problem facing the 'No' campaign is that the UK is not a nation, but a multi-national state.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'll be honest and say that I'm not bothered. I think of myself as Welsh and British, and the second of those is probably more important in terms of describing my cultural background, but then I do live in England. But it's not something that concerns me much. I more or less think of myself as a Londoner now.
I'm not trying to deny Scottish nationhood here. I was merely commenting on the narrow point about International Law. Most Catalans that I've met object to being called Spanish in the same way that many Scots object to being called British. But currently that carries no legal weight in Spain. To achieve international recognition as a nation is a complex business.
(btw I know editor disagrees on this, but culturally, I would say that South Wales and the West of England are far closer to each other than either is to many other parts of England. I don't see any great differences between the Welsh and the English.)
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weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
apart from the language, the culture and the history, you mean?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The cultures have an enormous amount in common. 80 per cent of Welsh people share a language with England. And they have a 500-year history as part of the same country.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Surely an even greater proportion of Scots speak English?
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