Scottish independence - as an Englishman, am I "wrong" not to give a crap?

[JTG]

(btw I know editor disagrees on this, but culturally, I would say that South Wales and the West of England are far closer to each other than either is to many other parts of England. I don't see any great differences between the Welsh and the English.)

It's an interesting point and I can certainly see much to support it. Personally I'd say I feel I have more in common with south Wales than I do with points east of Swindon in many respects

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surely an even greater proportion of Scots speak English?

Yes, but language is only one aspect. I would say that the Welsh and English have a lot more in common than the Scots and the English.

 

[weltweit]

Yes, but language is only one aspect. I would say that the Welsh and English have a lot more in common than the Scots and the English.

I don't know anymore. I am a bit shocked if I am honest about how many Scots want independence, even if there is in the end not enough to win, a significant proportion have made it clear they don't want to be in the United Kingdom, something I have lived with all my life.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know anymore. I am a bit shocked if I am honest about how many Scots want independence, even if there is in the end not enough to win, a significant proportion have made it clear they don't want to be in the United Kingdom, something I have lived with all my life.

Why shocked? I'm not shocked in the slightest. There is a majority there that is pissed off with Westminster and being ruled by various colours of tories. As are a huge number of English and Welsh people - the one thing I don't buy at all is the idea that Scotland is somehow a more left-wing country than England/Wales.

 

[weltweit]

Why shocked? I'm not shocked in the slightest. There is a majority there that is pissed off with Westminster and being ruled by various colours of tories. As are a huge number of English and Welsh people - the one thing I don't buy at all is the idea that Scotland is somehow a more left-wing country than England/Wales.

Shocked because I have possibly more connections to Scotland than many people who live down south as my mothers family is there, and yet I haven't really noticed the craving to be free which seems to be gripping a proportion of Scotland at the moment.

Your feeling that Scotland is not as left wing as you expected is based on what?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Your feeling that Scotland is not as left wing as you expected is based on what?

I didn't say that. Give Yorkshire or Lancashire or the Midlands or the West Country or Wales, or quite possibly London, an assembly with the same powers as Scotland's parliament and you would see them abolishing tuition fees and doing other more left-wing things, too. With those examples to be envious of, even the Home Counties would see demands for such things. The policies enacted by Westminster do not reflect the wishes of the majority. They reflect the failure of democracy in the UK.

 

[free spirit]

I'll be honest and say that I'm not bothered. I think of myself as Welsh and British, and the second of those is probably more important in terms of describing my cultural background, but then I do live in England. But it's not something that concerns me much. I more or less think of myself as a Londoner now.

I'm not trying to deny Scottish nationhood here. I was merely commenting on the narrow point about International Law. Most Catalans that I've met object to being called Spanish in the same way that many Scots object to being called British. But currently that carries no legal weight in Spain. To achieve international recognition as a nation is a complex business.

(btw I know editor disagrees on this, but culturally, I would say that South Wales and the West of England are far closer to each other than either is to many other parts of England. I don't see any great differences between the Welsh and the English.)

One difference between the Spanish situation and here being that Spain was called Spain prior to the anexation of Catalonia, whereas England was called England, Scotland was called Scotland, and together they formed the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and Ireland now Northern Ireland). England didn't attempt to rebrand Scotland as just another part of England.

 

[weepiper]

We object to being called 'British' because we didn't have any part in deciding that we were going to be 'British'. Our ruling class did it for us.

 

[free spirit]

Why shocked? I'm not shocked in the slightest. There is a majority there that is pissed off with Westminster and being ruled by various colours of tories. As are a huge number of English and Welsh people - the one thing I don't buy at all is the idea that Scotland is somehow a more left-wing country than England/Wales.

I think the majority of English people are a lot more social democratic at least than is reflected in the politicians that get elected, as all 3 of our main political parties have been taken over by neoliberalists, and there is no real social democratic alternative.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

One difference between the Spanish situation and here being that Spain was called Spain prior to the anexation of Catalonia, whereas England was called England, Scotland was called Scotland, and together they formed the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and Ireland now Northern Ireland). England didn't attempt to rebrand Scotland as just another part of England.

True, but there is another term for Scotland/England/Wales - British. I suspect that the term 'British' is probably more popular among the Welsh than anyone else.

 

[weltweit]

We object to being called 'British' because we didn't have any part in deciding that we were going to be 'British'. Our ruling class did it for us.

So, call yourself Scottish then, lots of Welsh call themselves Welsh and English call themselves English! Doesn't mean they can't co-exist in the United Kingdom.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We object to being called 'British' because we didn't have any part in deciding that we were going to be 'British'. Our ruling class did it for us.

Most countries have been formed through agreements among ruling classes, though. England itself was formed through foreign conquest, and the landed aristocracy can still trace roots back to that conquest. That's not to say Harold was any better than William. They were both after taking power for themselves, not in any sense heading movements representing ordinary people.

Ordinary English people also had no say in the matter. 'Common' people had no say in much at all at the time.

I think you're doomed to anachronism if you try to justify a political nationalism of today by things that happened hundreds of years ago.

 

[weltweit]

I suppose if Scotland votes yes it will not fund nuclear weapons, a significant military or navy, perhaps those savings and keeping all North Sea oil revenues may cover a free university education for all.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is no part of the UK that cannot easily fund free university education.

 

[weltweit]

There is no part of the UK that cannot easily fund free university education.

How much would it cost then to fund free Uni education for England and Wales pa?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How much would it cost then to fund free Uni education for England and Wales pa?

Firstly, it is already funded - it's just that students are then given debts to repay.

But there are around 1.5 million students. Multiply that by 10k to get a ballpark figure, and you get 15 billion per year.

To give some context, that's less than the annual housing benefit bill. It's about a sixth of the total money paid in VAT per year. It's about a seventh of the total money borrowed by government currently each year.

 

[weltweit]

Are you saying Scotland will have lower costs after independence then and possibly greater income per head?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are you saying Scotland will have lower costs after independence then and possibly greater income per head?

No.

 

[weltweit]

No.

But they won't have to fund a big army, navy and airforce, or nuclear weapons, and will keep all the oil taxes that used to go to Westminster. That might suggest they could be better off, compared to now.

 

[Nylock]

I suspect that the term 'British' is probably more popular among the Welsh than anyone else.

Not meaning to be confrontation here but.... Prove it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not meaning to be confrontation here but.... Prove it.

Can't be arsed. That's why I put 'I suspect' in there. I can't prove to you that I suspect something - you just have to take my word for it. The plural of anecdote is not data, but anecdote is all I have to go on.

 

[Nylock]

Can't be arsed. That's why I put 'I suspect' in there. I can't prove to you that I suspect something - you just have to take my word for it. The plural of anecdote is not data, but anecdote is all I have to go on.

Fair enough

But i suspect your suspicions on that one are not entirely correct though..

 

[geminisnake]

Surely an even greater proportion of Scots speak English?

Are you on facebook at all? Cabrach radio seem to have un youtubed all their videos so I can't put up an example.

 

[weltweit]

Are you on facebook at all? Cabrach radio seem to have un youtubed all their videos so I can't put up an example.

Nope, not on facebook yet, now that it is no longer cool I might give it a go in the next couple of months!

 

[danny la rouge]

Surely an even greater proportion of Scots speak English?

Well, that's contested. All Scots understand English, but whether it's their first language is another question. The Scots Language is sufficiently similar to English to allow Scots speakers to understand English (although often English speakers complain they can't understand Scots).

The Scots Language is not English spoken badly. But any attempt to find the demarcation between a language and a dialect is doomed to failure. A language is a dialect with a national flag. C/f the Scandinavian languages.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think you're doomed to anachronism if you try to justify a political nationalism of today by things that happened hundreds of years ago.

Absolutely.

 

[DotCommunist]

proper glaswegian or edingboro certainly can sound like a foreign tongue if you aren't used to it- written vernacular style its even stranger. I'd say its closer to dialect than the really posh scottish accent which sounds like RP with slightly different vowel sounds. Almost indistinguishable from posh engish pronunciation.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Are you on facebook at all? Cabrach radio seem to have un youtubed all their videos so I can't put up an example.

Sing along, back o' the bus!

Cabrach's lads are pretty broad doric, but I could point out plenty of other english dialects that are as inpenetrable. Appalachian is meant to be about the worst, though a full blown redneck sounds like a martian to me.

 

[danny la rouge]

proper glaswegian or edingboro certainly can sound like a foreign tongue if you aren't used to it- written vernacular style its even stranger. I'd say its closer to dialect than the really posh scottish accent which sounds like RP with slightly different vowel sounds. Almost indistinguishable from posh engish pronunciation.

The landed gentry and associated class in Scotland don't speak Scots (any more); they speak English.

Scots differs from English not just in pronunciation, but also in vocabulary, grammar and syntax.

Of course the traditional dialect where I am now (the Potteries) does to some extent, too. But see my caveat above.

Anthony Burgess is great on this stuff. See A Mouthful of Air.

 

[andysays]

The landed gentry and associated class in Scotland don't speak Scots (any more); they speak English.

Scots differs from English not just in pronunciation, but also in vocabulary, grammar and syntax.

Of course the traditional dialect where I am now (the Potteries) does to some extent, too. But see my caveat above.

Anthony Burgess is great on this stuff. See A Mouthful of Air.

There are all sorts of regional dialects and other non-standard forms of English spoken in England and elsewhere. There are also different regional dialects spoken in different parts of Scotland.

Where do we draw the line between a dialect and a seperate language, I wonder? (this is a genuine question, not an attempt to dismiss out of hand the idea that there is such a thing as a Scots language)